FUEL PROBLEMS with Ethonal

   / FUEL PROBLEMS with Ethonal #111  
I always thought that running a small engine out of fuel made for a "damp" carb with a little fuel in it which would be more likely to dry up and leave sediment/varnish. I just run them periodically and keep the tank full

Well, it would be damp, in that the pickup tube (jet) would leave a small amount at the bottom of the carb bowl. Best to drain the carb bowl as a last step, perhaps running it our of fuel is unnecessary if there's a fuel shut off to close and then drain the carb. Also, pull the starter rope through until the engine is on a compression stroke - this to stop it with valves closed to help prevent rust.

bumper
 
   / FUEL PROBLEMS with Ethonal #112  
That is pretty much my story as well. I have not had gas go bad on me in a very long time. I remember it worse 20 years ago where I had to use it really fast or it went bad. Now for me it seems to last forever. I store all of my equipment wet, not sure if that makes any difference.

I wonder why you and I never have issues and others have a horrible time. I have never left my equipment outside but it has sat a year and ran just fine, stored wet. Heck my chainsaw has probably not had a dry fuel line in 10 years and never an issue. Starts and runs great every time, new or old fuel, runs the same.

It has to be a local thing. Regional mixes vary.

Chris
 
   / FUEL PROBLEMS with Ethonal #113  
Heck my chainsaw has probably not had a dry fuel line in 10 years and never an issue. Starts and runs great every time, new or old fuel, runs the same.

I'm thinking we need to hear a little more about that chainsaw :)

Just a Husky 372XP saw, though it is the older version, circa 2002. Though before I start the saw I do shake it to mix up the oil and gas. I have heard (nothing to back it up.) that with E10 the oil separates easier. I always shake the gas can before I fill it up as well.
 
   / FUEL PROBLEMS with Ethonal #114  
When Ethanol gas ate up the rubber fuel line on my Troy-Bilt Tiller I started looking for Ethanol-free gas. Found it at the same place I buy my AG-Diesel. When the tiller was new I never had a problem starting it. But as it got older it did get hard to start. Since using the real Gas it fires on the firsts pull. Chainsaws and Weed eaters all start much easier now. I will never put Ethanol-gas in my gas run engines, and wish that they would outlaw it completely here in Texas.

Charlie
 
   / FUEL PROBLEMS with Ethonal #115  
No one is going to outlaw it. The opposite will be true. The only way ethanol free gas will be available at the retail level is if there is a demand for it. You don't see every food product made on every grocer's shelf. Just the products that move consistently. The majority of folks have no issues with ethanol in gasoline, except maybe on principle. There is relatively few folks that have any actual mechanical problems that can be directly attributed to ethanol in gas. So, there is not going to ever really be that significant demand for ethanol free gas. So to that end, those that only want to use gas only, will have a more difficult time getting it. The gooberment is not as pure as the wind driven snow in this matter, but it also is basic economics at play. There are pluses and minuses to every fuel there is. No fuel is without problems, just different. It costs a significant amount of money to have additional storage tanks for extra types of fuels. And a lot of places are not going to carry more than a regular with ethanol and a premium (probably also with ethanol). At best, maybe a mid grade also. It just isn't cost effective for all stations to offer more than that, because the volume of sales don't justify it. Especially when you factor in that regular, ethanol free gas, is usually a few cents more in cost. Many folks focus in on the lowest price they can get at the pump. Very few people are purists about their vehicles and get all caught up in the arcane details over fuels and oils.
 
   / FUEL PROBLEMS with Ethonal #116  
The current govt agenda works pretty well, largely based on people's ignorance. (Speaking of the general population, not TBN readers).

1) Ethanol has a lower energy density, so effectively govts increase taxes ( even with a "flat"/fixed amount of tax per volume) every time they increase ethanol content. You end up with worse fuel consumption on E10+, vs. pure gas, so to travel the same distance you pay more tax. If people are not paying attention to this issue, then they'll ignore the other issues, until something doesn't work anymore.

2) Phase separation is a known problem, that can be severe in certain environments like marine, or anywhere with high humidity and wide temperature swings.

Fuel School: Phase Separation in Ethanol Blended Gasoline

3) Aside from the small engine problems (most, but not all) people have had, E15 has caused early fuel pump failures in lab testing. One example of why engine manuf. are against anything beyond E10.

Science education is weak enough today that only a small percentage of the population pays any attention to most of these issues.

Rgds, D.
 
   / FUEL PROBLEMS with Ethonal #117  
It's been over 10 years since I inspected a terminal or a gas station as a fire inspector so some things might have changed. The three brands the terminal carried did not refine their own gasoline. There were only two grades of gasoline stored at the terminal, 87 no lead and 93 no lead. When they needed either one the terminal manager went out on the market and bought 100,000 barrels or whatever he needed from the cheapest source. Intermediate grades were a mixture of the two, either blended at the loading rack going into the tanker or more often at the gas station pump. That way the gas station only has to have two underground storage tanks but sells three grades. Additives for a particular brand was added to the gasoline as it was loaded into the tanker at the loading rack depending on which brand was being sold.

Makes me wonder if ethanol is added the same way, as it's being loaded into the tanker. Our secretary at work was on vacation two weeks ago. They filled up the motorhome at a station in New Mexico with about half a tank. Shortly done the road it died and had to be towed to the shop. The shop tested the fuel and it was 40% ethanol. After draining the tank and changing filters they made it home. It still has a problem running rough so I suspect the injectors were damaged. I saw a tester being demonstrated today on one of the car shows that allows you to determine the ethanol content of your fuel. The fuel they tested was 13% ethanol.

EDIT: The gas station did not sell E85 but it appeared E85 may have been accidently dumped in the underground storage tank. Of course when they contacted the gas station they denied anyone else was having problems with their fuel.
 
   / FUEL PROBLEMS with Ethonal #118  
Makes me wonder if ethanol is added the same way, as it's being loaded into the tanker. Our secretary at work was on vacation two weeks ago. They filled up the motorhome at a station in New Mexico with about half a tank. Shortly done the road it died and had to be towed to the shop. The shop tested the fuel and it was 40% ethanol. After draining the tank and changing filters they made it home. It still has a problem running rough so I suspect the injectors were damaged. I saw a tester being demonstrated today on one of the car shows that allows you to determine the ethanol content of your fuel. The fuel they tested was 13% ethanol.

EDIT: The gas station did not sell E85 but it appeared E85 may have been accidently dumped in the underground storage tank. Of course when they contacted the gas station they denied anyone else was having problems with their fuel.

I think the real answer is that the station had a problem with phase separation in the underground tank. The high concentration of ethanol ended up at the bottom where the fuel is drawn from.

I know of an instance where this has happened.
 
   / FUEL PROBLEMS with Ethonal #119  
Dave, your general contentions are correct, to a point. The first, the fuel tax deal governments benefit from due to decreased mpg, is not long lasting. Cummins, GM, and others have engines in testing phase right now, that get better hp and torque than current crop of engines, at a lower displacement, along with as good or better mpg than current engines running gas, and doing it all on E85. GM's 3.2L EBDI engine in testing now, gets the same HP and Torque as the 6.6L Duramax diesel, and better mpg, on E85. Cummins 2.8L inline 4 banger, currently in testing, has 450 lb torque (better than most small V8's) and as good or better mpg, again, from E85.

Phase separation can indeed happen. Does it happen frequently? Not that you would notice. Folks in the midwest, with their wet winters, and humid summers, have been using ethanol blends from E10, E20, E30, on up to E85 for decades and phase separation is something that hardly ever comes up. Most folks have no clue what it is, and if it were occurring frequently, they would. True, ethanol will blend with water and cause phase separation, but unless you are introducing water into the fuel tank, it is not really an issue. All vehicle fuel systems and tanks are closed, non vented systems. My advice... don't pour water into your fuel tank. Only put fuel in it. Some marine and small engine problems could occur, but usually because of long term storage in the tank and vented tanks. That is a recipe for condensation issues, and that could cause a problem combined with ethanol. But it could also cause a problem even with regular gas. Now, I will concede that a fuel station could have issues with their storage tanks and it cause a problem. After all, we do not live in a perfect world. But it sure seems to be extremely rare.

E15, it is still too early in the game to make a full conclusive determination if it is a problem. The USDA and DOT have done a lot of testing and not found any conclusive data that shows E15 is a problem in vehicles produced in the last 10 years.

True, problems with ethanol can occur, just like they can if someone gets a bad batch of gas or diesel. The ethanol folks have had a standing offer to pay off anyone with, best I recall, $250,000 if they can prove conclusively that an ethanol blended fuel actually was the prime culprit in a fuel related problem. So far, no one has won the prize. Usually it is found that conditions that had nothing to do with the ethanol itself was the true culprit. like vented fuel systems, improper storage, etc.

I have no issue with anyone who doesn't want to buy the stuff. I have no dog in that hunt. I like ethanol blends, and have used them in everything from lawn mowers, chain saws, generators, and vehicles for a long, long time, with not one fuel related problem. But I do somewhat take issue with arguments that are based on internet folklore or some rare situation that we do not know all the facts surrounding the case. If ethanol were such a problem, there would have been a hue and cry come up from the public a long time ago. But except for a few outspoken folks and the oil companies themselves, you hardly hear a peep from anyone else. Day after day, year round, for decades, a high percentage of the buying public have filled their tanks with E10, at least, with hardly any issues occurring.

It makes it real hard to buy into the fear and conspiracy regarding ethanol.
 
   / FUEL PROBLEMS with Ethonal #120  
Seems we have at least one sheeple on TBN
:rolleyes:
 

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