Flow control or not, for sickle bar: Samuri/Sabre

[J_J]

This is one of the motors used.

2.8 cu in CHAR-LYNN 101-1001 HYD MOTOR

71 ft lbs of torque, continuous.

I would suspect the slower you run it, the larger branches you can cut. Which is why about 350 rpm or slower is recommend

At fast speeds, it may take a while to saw through the branch.

 

[Coyote machine]

Coyote machine, That is my problem, it squeals when I remove the sickle connection. At this point the flow should be stopped. When the sickle is connected it runs great. It would take more than my wimpy hydraulic knowledge to figure this thing out.

I'm not sure we're on the same page. I'm saying to avoid the squeal, remove the sickle bar AND the flow control valve as a complete combined unit, intended for sickle bar cutting only. That way, no overpressure, no need far a jumper from CF to EF, etc. Don't know if trying to remove all of it from the tractor would more difficult then just removal of the sickle bar since currently neither is in my possession yet.
It's an idea to consider though....


J_J and Spyderlk, what if anything can we conclude from what's been kicked around so far?

 

[J_J]

The people at Samurai did not call me back.

No idea why the 500 psi limit.

 

[SPYDERLK]

The people at Samurai did not call me back.

No idea why the 500 psi limit.

Theres no why. Its an error. ... One of typo, or due diligence in internal company analysis or communication.
,,,, Fortunately there is experience of users to rely on.
The cutter is not harmed by stall at 2600 relief setting.

 

[J_J]

Coyote machine ,

Here is the answer I obtained from the folks at Samuri.

The 500 psi is not a mistake.

The suggested 500 psi is there to prevent the torque from a high psi motor from destroying the blades and gearing.

So in order to limit the torque, you have to add an external relief valve across the motor.

If you don't limit the torque, you will be breaking , bending and ripping things apart.

Although they mentioned the 1 in material, they are talking about green material, not dried 1 in oak branches.

 

[SPYDERLK]

Coyote machine ,

Here is the answer I obtained from the folks at Samuri.

The 500 psi is not a mistake.

The suggested 500 psi is there to prevent the torque from a high psi motor from destroying the blades and gearing.

So in order to limit the torque, you have to add an external relief valve across the motor.

If you don't limit the torque, you will be breaking , bending and ripping things apart.

Although they mentioned the 1 in material, they are talking about green material, not dried 1 in oak branches.

TOTAL BS from the mfg. Based on their info it would be a mistake to buy the cutter. It wont cut anything of 1" diameter at 500 psi -- maybe milkweed :confused3:. And it is not harmed by the torque developed at 2500psi.
larry

 

[J_J]

I am not sure why you disagree with the guys that make the Samurai. [spelling] not sure.

I am sure they are cautious about the damage that could occur.

You probably will not be cutting 1in oak branches all the time, and even if you do, with no relief, the pressure could go as high as 2400 psi. The motor is rated to develop pressure in continuous work load of 1800 psi. It is also not just the motor. How about the mechanical parts in the head assembly, and the blades, can they take all the torque developed by the motor?

I think a few test cuts will help one decided if any relief should be added.

I wonder how many units that have been returned because of misuse and lack of operating procedures.

I think I would put a hyd gage on the unit and watch the pressure and what I am cutting to determine the best way to operate the sickle bar mower.

At $1450 I would be a little cautious.

 

[Coyote machine]

Hey guys, I'm back, and the sickle bar should arrive this coming Tuesday.
I'll keep you posted as to any concerns as I set-up the unit for my rig.
I'm not sure we're any closer to an answer to my original question than at the beginning of this thread, especially since the two opinions currently seem to be at opposite ends of the spectrum as to whether or not to restrict flow?!:confused2:

 

[J_J]

I think you will have to restrict flow as the blades will be moving to fast for efficient cutting.

You can vary the flow and speed of the tractor as you test the unit for the best operation.

The speed of operation will change as you cut various shrubbery and limbs.

I think the flow should be adjusted to let the material touch the base of the cutting bar for the best cutting technique.

The pressure will vary as you cut different material.

Torque should be constant throughout the cutting speed.

You don't want the woody material to ride on the tips of the cutting teeth.

Thats my story and I am sticking to it.

 

[SPYDERLK]

TOTAL BS from the mfg. Based on their info it would be a mistake to buy the cutter. It wont cut anything of 1" diameter at 500 psi -- maybe milkweed :confused3:. And it is not harmed by the torque developed at 2500psi.
larry

I am not sure why you disagree with the guys that make the Samurai. [spelling] not sure.

I am sure they are cautious about the damage that could occur.

You probably will not be cutting 1in oak branches all the time, and even if you do, with no relief, the pressure could go as high as 2400 psi. The motor is rated to develop pressure in continuous work load of 1800 psi. It is also not just the motor. How about the mechanical parts in the head assembly, and the blades, can they take all the torque developed by the motor?

I think a few test cuts will help one decided if any relief should be added.

I wonder how many units that have been returned because of misuse and lack of operating procedures.

I think I would put a hyd gage on the unit and watch the pressure and what I am cutting to determine the best way to operate the sickle bar mower.

At $1450 I would be a little cautious.

Its pretty obvious from my posts why I not only disagree, but call BS on their statements. - If you dont see it ask some questions. - The cutter wont do anything if limited to 500psi. If you believe them about damage at pressure anywhere near that limit you are essentially settling for a grass cutter if you plan to follow that guideline. The company is limiting its device to a worthless performance level. They are also throwing out chaff -- it has no gears to damage.

The cutter is capable of withstanding the force developed from the motor stalling on a 2600PSI relieved system if they havent downgraded it since I bought mine.

,,,,I dealt with the motor pressure issue earlier. :

Those are continuous use pressures. Intermittent is quite a bit higher. On the cutter the motor only sees hi pressure for an instant. Duty cycle at appreciable pressure is probably less than 0.1% and only a small fraction of a second at a time.

 

[SPYDERLK]

Hey guys, I'm back, and the sickle bar should arrive this coming Tuesday.
I'll keep you posted as to any concerns as I set-up the unit for my rig.
I'm not sure we're any closer to an answer to my original question than at the beginning of this thread, especially since the two opinions currently seem to be at opposite ends of the spectrum as to whether or not to restrict flow?!:confused2:

I have seen no disagreement that flow should be limited to an amount such that the sickle is not a blur. High sickle speed is detrimental to the cut because material cannot get into the shear area well. ... And in the unlikely event something tuf did enter, the cutter stopping abruptly from high speed would see extreme forces. This would be from motor and blade inertia and have nothing to do with the relief pressure setting.

 

[Coyote machine]

I think you will have to restrict flow as the blades will be moving to fast for efficient cutting.

You can vary the flow and speed of the tractor as you test the unit for the best operation.

The speed of operation will change as you cut various shrubbery and limbs.

I think the flow should be adjusted to let the material touch the base of the cutting bar for the best cutting technique.

The pressure will vary as you cut different material.

Torque should be constant throughout the cutting speed.

You don't want the woody material to ride on the tips of the cutting teeth.

Thats my story and I am sticking to it.

Alright, so are you saying to hook the sickle up and try it on different types of materials and see how it performs? If I were to install a gauge to monitor what's going on where do you suggest it should go? On inlet line to motor?

I like your 'story', and by all means stick with it. :thumbsup:

 

[Coyote machine]

I have seen no disagreement that flow should be limited to an amount such that the sickle is not a blur. High sickle speed is detrimental to the cut because material cannot get into the shear area well. ... And in the unlikely event something tuf did enter, the cutter stopping abruptly from high speed would see extreme forces. This would be from motor and blade inertia and have nothing to do with the relief pressure setting.

I said nothing about the sickle's teeth being a blur in my statement above.
You insist you're right about everything you state and that what the manufacturer states is in your vernacular total B.S. You're about the only Samuri user replying to my thread, and because of that you imply that your opinions are better than anything the manufacturer, or seemingly anyone else can offer.
As the thread OP I'd like something from you that isn't in the form of you know it all and anyone else's opinion, including the manufacturer is nutz. This is NOT helpful to me in determining what I should do to get the best use out of the new equipment I've purchased.
Have you spoken to the manufacturer, ever? I have on two occasions since I considered this sickle. Over the years they've made some improvements to the bucket bracket and other items I don't recall at this moment, but are likely in my notes about the sickle.
They say that in some applications for particular uses on certain tractors there may be a need for a flow restrictor or similar, but they are vague about what constitutes the necessary parameters.
It's obvious that the best cutting would occur with that item deepest into the space between the teeth. The teeth are serrated and not able to be sharpened.
Now, if you have something that will tell me succinctly, and without convolution, whether or not I should try running the sickle with or without any flow restrictor or similar device, then please enlighten me.

 

[J_J]

I would install the gage in a tee in the IN port of the valve that is controlling the sickle bar mower.

My difference with the other guy is that the motor could develop enough force to damage the mechanicals of the sickle bar mower

The motor is going to develop its own pressure based on the material that it is cutting.

The other guy is almost saying that you can not break the machine.

 

[Coyote machine]

I would install the gage in a tee in the IN port of the valve that is controlling the sickle bar mower.

My difference with the other guy is that the motor could develop enough force to damage the mechanicals of the sickle bar mower

The motor is going to develop its own pressure based on the material that it is cutting.

The other guy is almost saying that you can not break the machine.

Yeah!
Can't break a machine.....:laughing: I've broken a few over the years....:confused3:
That's exactly what I'm trying to avoid. :thumbsup:
OK, a 'T' at the inlet to the motor of the sickle.

 

[J_J]

Actually, if you have a loader, I would put the gage in a tee in the IN port of the FEL and mount it so you can see it at all times.

That way, you can use the gage to monitor every hyd action and troubleshoot the hyd system.

 

[LouieJunior]

I have one of these cutters. Have used it with and without a flow restricter. What I've experienced is this...

I'm not using the saw simultaneously with another attachment such as my flail mower @ 540. I am usually traveling very slow ground speed with low engine speed too. My hydraulic control is momentary so when I take my thumb off -- the blades stop. If it gets caught on a brach that is too big, it is easy to reverse flow and it let's go.

The visual speed-check (seeing the blades) is pretty easy to judge and maintain using the throttle.

Check out my video on YouTube:

Samurai in Action - YouTube

 

[Coyote machine]

I have one of these cutters. Have used it with and without a flow restricter. What I've experienced is this...

I'm not using the saw simultaneously with another attachment such as my flail mower @ 540. I am usually traveling very slow ground speed with low engine speed too. My hydraulic control is momentary so when I take my thumb off -- the blades stop. If it gets caught on a brach that is too big, it is easy to reverse flow and it let's go.

The visual speed-check (seeing the blades) is pretty easy to judge and maintain using the throttle.

Check out my video on YouTube:

Samurai in Action - YouTube

Thanks for chiming in! So you say you've used the cutter with and without a flow restrictor. Can you say when and why you used or didn't use it? What the reasoning/logic is for use or lack of use?
I did see your video prior to your posting the link here. I must say I had a hard time viewing it - it seems really distorted for some reason? Not being critical- just saying it is hard to view; any idea why that is?

 

[LouieJunior]

Thanks for chiming in! So you say you've used the cutter with and without a flow restrictor. Can you say when and why you used or didn't use it? What the reasoning/logic is for use or lack of use?
I did see your video prior to your posting the link here. I must say I had a hard time viewing it - it seems really distorted for some reason? Not being critical- just saying it is hard to view; any idea why that is?

I installed it initially with a prince flow controller and soon had it adjusted "wide open" because of the slow operation speed. Maybe with a much bigger tractor, you'd want to have one in use.

I must admit it was difficult filming while operating the tractor and the sickle bar! Not a great clip -- but good enough to see the unit in use in my judgement! Next time I'll hire martin scorsese.

 

[Coyote machine]

Or have someone else do the video while you use the tractor/sickle.
I've got a Go-Pro camera, so maybe I'll shoot some footage when I'm up and running?!

So how long have you had your cutter and how do you like it; what do you use it to cut primarily?