A lost Asset in Auto Transmissions

[MinnesotaEric]

Complaints are about shuddering while accelerating and decelerating. Enough for carcomplaints.com to put a warning up about the 2013 models.

That might be a complaint in the quality of the "shifting," not the reliability of the transmission. considering CVT's want to be infinitely variable, making them pretend to have fixed gear ratios is harder than it should be.

The trajectory is that CVTs where bad in the first gen (but really no worse than their contemporaries), got better in the second gen, pretty much sorted by the third gen, in need of better software in the 4th, and, from what I'm hearing, much improved in the fifth gen.

 

[MinnesotaEric]

You were touting how great traction control is and I was just pointing out that it would not benefit the OP with his problem. First gears are so low on these new 6-9 speed transmissions that managing wheel spin is difficult on snow or ice. I too have a lot of experience with driving on ice and snow. I don't understand your concern on needing a heavier transmission to crawl away from a stop sign in 2nd gear. I never had transmission problems from the few times I have used 2nd gear in the snow or preventing me from spilling the baked beans going to the potluck.

It was somewhat common for automatic transmissions to have a "feature" specifically called out in the owners manual that allowed the car to start in 2nd gear for this very reason. The OP simply stated that manufacturers are now deleting the bonus feature. So in some minds, your opinion that "new transmissions are simply better in every imaginable way" is false. I will agree that transmissions are generally better today but not in this one specific situation.

My feeling is that some don't understand this missing feature the OP is discussing so I am trying to describe it better.

I'm trying to figure out why on God's green earth you need to take off in second gear. In snow? Why? on ice? Why?

 

[MikePA]

I'm trying to figure out why on God's green earth you need to take off in second gear. In snow? Why? on ice? Why?

You quoted the answer to your three 'why's'.

 

[jejeosborne]

I'm trying to figure out why on God's green earth you need to take off in second gear. In snow? Why? on ice? Why?

I tried to throughly explain that you have better torque control in 2nd gear. It is not necessary... Just helpful.
The coefficient of static friction is greater than the coefficient of kinetic friction. The greatest grip takes place immediately before tire slippage.

Maybe this will make it a little clearer with a made up scenario. When stuck in snow in 1st gear, it takes 1/2 inch of accelerator movement to break the tires loose. In 2nd gear it requires 1-1/2 inches of movement before loss of traction. That extra inch of pedal travel allows a more precise application of torque to ride the very fine line between static and kinetic friction.

I can go into more detail on how these frictions affect the throttle cable, the pivot point of the pedal, the connection between your shoe and the pedal, and even the joints in your skeletal system that worsen this precision trying to modulate the pedal in that 1/2 travel.

In summary 2nd gear is not necessary but helpful. I would wager a bet that even you could accelerate quicker from a stop sign using 2nd gear rather than 1st on snow or ice. Additionally removing that torquey shift from 1st to 2nd eliminates a slippage opportunity.

 

[LD1]

Throw me in the camp that has never seen an automatic allow 2nd gear starts manually.

The automatic chooses the best ratio at the time. IF you are easy with the pedal, sometimes that is second gear. If you tromp it from a dead stop, thats 1st gear.


While I agree that a second gear start for some is helpful, its all about pedal control. 1st gear has the ability to do everything 2nd gear can do, but given a lower gear ratio, the pedal is more touchy since you have lots more torque available. IF traction will only permit 100ft-lbs before slip, and 1st gear gives you 500ft-lbs and second allows only 250, you have better control, but still nothing that cannot be done in 1st with good pedal control.

But 90% of my vehicles in the past have either been small manual cars, or 4wd trucks, So I never had any issues.

AS to the CVT, The wifes car is a 08 Sentra with CVT and ~130,000miles. No trouble at all. And I cannot say anything bad about the trans in snow. IT handles just like you would expect a car with wide-low profile- all season tires to handle.

I will add this about automatic transmissions though. Especially important for trucks. Selecting 1 on the shifter does more than just locking it in 1st gear. Selecting 1 applys the low-reverse band. Not only does that give you engine braking, but its like adding a second clutch for high torque starts. Instead of just relying on the clutch pack holding when you are trying to tow near max load, it adds that band and lessens slip and wear.

It is also a great diagnostic feature. IF your transmission looses reverse, first thing to try is see if you have 1st gear engine breaking. If you do not, you likely have a worn out low-reverse band. Since that band also drives the reverse gears.

 

[HHR]

I don't know of any vehicles that have a real throttle cable anymore. And that is part of the problem. It is getting harder to "feel" where the slippage point is. Having a "snow" setting that would deaden the actual throttle response and soften shifts would be easy to program into the vehicle computer.

I have a CVT transmission in my Ford Freestyle and it does fine in the snow.. As for reliability, my neighbor has the same vehicle and he just passed 260k miles with no problems.

 

[Oaktree]

All I know is that the Altimas were switched over to CVTs in 2013 and on carcomplaint.com they are having more tranny problems than in previous year models.

Are you sure it wasn't before that? I had one for a rental while on a business trip, and it had the CVT. I retired in the summer of 2012, so it's not likely it was a '13 model.

My pushback is that new transmissions are simply better in every imaginable way.

I don't know about that. Yeah they're more efficient than ever, but like everything else in a modern vehicle weight is a major concern leading to lighter-duty components. Too soon to tell if they stand up better than old-school ones.

 

[Garandman]

//We just bought a Subaru. It seems to have a "slap stick" I'll have to test that out and see exactly how it behaves when shifted manually.

Which model? Most automatic shift Subarus now have a CVT.

My 2006 Outback 3.0R has the VTD drive system, which is a 45/65 drive system. It has a 5 speed automatic that allows manual selection and will start off in 2nd. But when it is in first or reverse supposedly it locks the center differential so you defeat that function. This particular model also has a mechanical LSD.

Many Subarus also have VDC, which is their AWD system that detects wheelspin via the ABS system and applies braking effort to the spinning wheel. I have this on my manual shift WRX and while you can switch it off, it works pretty well with winter tires if you have some momentum, for example driving up a steep hill or turning onto a steep uphill driveway.

We have a couple of Hondas and even with winter tires I've found it necessary to shut off the traction control as it won't allow enough wheelspin to get started up a steep hill, for example.

"All Season" tires, all bets are off as most of them don't have enough grip to do anything but drive down a straight flat highway.

 

[jejeosborne]

I don't know of any vehicles that have a real throttle cable anymore. And that is part of the problem. It is getting harder to "feel" where the slippage point is. Having a "snow" setting that would deaden the actual throttle response and soften shifts would be easy to program into the vehicle computer.

I agree. Potentiometers have replaced many cables. I will add that many times even at idle and in 1st gear, torque is too great and will spin a tire in a 2wd vehicle.

 

[Garandman]

A manual transmission nowadays is the best form of anti-theft control.

"No ****, there I was."

We used to park on the street in South Boston. Subarus have very long range remotes for some reason: up to 300 feet. Sometimes the kids would play with the buttons and unlock the car. I'd driven my WRX to NYC the prior weekend and left the Valet key in the glovebox.

So one morning I hear what sounds like my car starting up. Some street junky saw the car was unlocked, got in and found the key. He started it up and tried to take off. But it was parked on a hill, and he rolled forward so much he couldn't get out of the space without putting the car in reverse. To put this particular model of Subaru into reverse, he push the shifter all the way right and down, but you also have to push down on the shift lever as there is a detent. So while he was fumbling for reverse I can running out, barefoot. I made a tactical error by running in front of the car, so he saw me coming and just got out the door or I would have been able to trap him inside. But since he beat feet, I got in the car and went looking for him. Didn't find him, but he left me a two liter bottle of Coke and a couple candy bars: crime did not pay.