Late last night

[ovrszd]

Yep, and it's playing out, sadly, even now in NYC where police officers were shot and 15 threats have been made via ,social media .

In my case, carrying concealed, surprise is the only advantage I might have. Whenever I practice, I always start from the position of my pistol holstered in my pocket. I decide to shoot, pull, acquire target and commence firing as soon as I believe I have a sight picture which would serve to stop the threat. I also evaluate each shot immediately and often go 3 or 4 rounds in one burst. This leaves me 4 shots remaining. I've had a long talk with myself...a pistol isn't like a rifle where I regularly make careful, timed one shot kills. Even a carefully aimed pistol shot cannot be as precise as a rifle. So, I consider that a reasonably aimed shot which hits center of mass is just dandy when practicing.

Of course, these things happen in a space of 5 seconds or less...observations, conclusions, decisions, actions for two or more actors...which can and will all be calmly or heatedly second guessed and discussed by LEO's, jury, courts, public who were not there.....for hours. And, even if the event were to be on camera, different individuals would interpret the same event differently, some seeing deadly threat, some not.

Tough call, deadly force threat/use is never a simple matter. Nothing more serious.

I have just acquired new insight into who you are John. I read this response a couple times to let it soak in. Your second paragraph says volumes. We could only wish that all carriers are so well self-trained and disciplined as yourself.

Carrying comes with great responsibility. Such as don't shoot yourself in the foot or some innocent bystander while handling your weapon. But it also comes with even greater responsibility when/if the situation arises that requires you to produce the weapon with serious intent. This responsibility is where I believe the majority of carriers will fail. They will get themselves shot because they fail to follow thru. Or they will blindly (with eyes shut) start pulling the trigger and put bullets thru everything in sight except the intended target and then get themselves shot.

All those reading this thread that do not practice as John has stated, or better yet, that have not had that long talk with themselves, take notice. You might be a bigger danger to society than the person who caused you to reveal your weapon.

Words of wisdom John. I "electronically" shake your hand. :drink:

 

[TomSeller]

All those reading this thread that do not practice as John has stated, or better yet, that have not had that long talk with themselves, take notice. You might be a bigger danger to society than the person who caused you to reveal your weapon.
:

Me thinks you are right

 

[texasjohn]

I appreciate your kind words, overszd! Means a lot from someone who's been there. Warm, sincere handshake returned!:drink:

Amazingly and sadly, unprovoked attacks continue, not just in NYC. Just up the road in Waco, a weatherman was ambush attacked by a complete stranger with no interactions whatsoever. Shot multiple times, recovering well.

"No Interaction": Waco Meteorologist Describes Shooting Attack | NBC 5 Dallas-Fort Worth

Such ambush attacks, exceptionally rare, including the attack at Luby's in Killeen some years ago (43 shot, 23 killed), are the reason I carry. Self protection necessity can occur anywhere during regular daily life.

 

[bcp]

Someone yells "Freeze!" on the other side of the store, while you are getting a bag of chips.

You look around the corner and see a scruffy man with a gun pointed toward a customer and cashier.

Do you shoot him and become a hero, or do you shoot him and find it was a plainclothes cop capturing the customer, a wanted murderer? Or would you wait and watch? Or...?

 

[texasjohn]

Capability for deadly force exists, intent not established, immediacy not established, no shot, no exposure of fire arm, hand in pocket ready to draw, remain mostly concealed and await further events. It will take only a second or two for things to become more clear. Call 911 and leave phone on so events are recorded and dispatcher can be informed of number of people and situation as it unfolds, maybe put phone in shirt pocket, leaving hands free for weapon if necessity arises.

 

[MossRoad]

Yep...I know, I know:drink: It's hard to put into words what I mean by "hostile situation" but I hope I would know it if it were to occur. It would certainly involve me being afraid for my life because the deadly intent of the person holding the gun had been made clear, in word and/or deed. I have no intent to present a gun unless this is the case. Once I present a gun, if the deadly threat/intent persists, then I perceive I have no alternative but to attempt to protect myself. Note that there are TWO points in time where I determine that I am in the presence of deadly intent AND the means to carry it out AND that I am the immediate target.

The presence of a gun, alone, is insufficient. Intent to use it with deadly force to me has not been established.

Intent alone is insufficient. Verbal threats, ranting, raving, is insufficient because the means of deadly force to me does not exist. Intent involves assessing the mental state of the individual and is based on many verbal and non verbal cues.

A difficult to define "time factor" also exists...a deadly intent can exist, with the means to carry it out, and yet still not be IMMEDIATE. Immediacy is paramount in determining that deadly force response is warranted/required to prevent my own death.

Only in a situation where a DEADLY weapon is present in the hands of someone who INTENDS to use it, IMMEDIATELY, against ME is a deadly force response necessary because I am in fear of my life.

One cannot know what they would do until presented with the actual situation and have it play out.

I keep thinking about the poor girl shot in a car and dumped on my place. Had I confronted the perpetrators, unknowingly, on that dark morning, would they have shot at me? They had the means. The intent is unknowable as is the immediacy. Certainly they would have been in a high state of agitation/adrenalin having shot her only a few minutes previously. Had they shot at me, what would I have done? Would I have been in their headlights to confront them? Would there have been a clear target for me in the dark, uncertain lighting. Would I have retreated into the dark, removing myself as a target for them? Retreat would have been the prudent thing. We'll thankfully never know. The perpetrators were caught after about six months following a multi-state LEO effort, convicted, and one is serving time.

Glad you didn't run into them. Sad for the victim.

I have friends that had a body dumped on one end of their farm, and their civil war era barn set on fire on the other end the same night. People coming to the fire found the body. Surprisingly, the two incidents weren't related. Sad case for the dead woman... husband went nuts. The fire was just kids being vandals.

I've been held at gunpoint before as a 16 year old. Not fun. Its been discussed here before about what may have happened had I been armed, so I won't go into it again. Just happy to be here.

 

[MossRoad]

I am the original poster of this story so let me add a little information that I did not know earlier. The lady who told the story met my wife as she participated in a class for teachers at the local university. My wife was one of the instructors in the class. I have never met her. According to my wife she is ex military, a farm girl, who is comfortable carrying and using firearms. She participated in some talk of deer hunting in the class. The kid who did the yelling did not smile, just stood in one place after yelling. It was not until some more of his group came in that the customers realized it was not a holdup. I do not know if he had his hands in his pockets or what he had on. The lady posted the story on Facebook and commented that she would have hit him in the head with a six-pack of Sun-Drop (a local soda known for its high caffeine content) that she had in her hands if she had been closer.

The incident happened in a small local town that has a police department. But most of the area around where we live is policed by county Sherriff's Departments. These Departments are very competent but are spread thin. A 911 call will be answered but in a robbery situation the victims are on their own for 15-30 minutes. Several years ago there was an attempted robbery of a country store where one of the elderly customers walked out of the store to his pickup, retrieved his shotgun and walked back in the store and stuck it in the robber's back. A large percentage of the OLDER farmers are carrying. Few have a Concealed Carry Permit. They are not carrying firearms to protect themselves from other humans but have the habit of sticking a 22 revolver in their pocket for snakes, stray dogs, and other critters.

If this had happened forty years ago in a country store the kid would have been shot. As it was he just got yelled at.

So the kids not only lucky he didn't get shot, he's lucky he didn't get bashed in the head by any angry woman. I think I'd of liked to see the angry woman scenario play out.

 

[JamesHW]

Funny story, I was in a store recently and a teenager behind me yelled FREEZE! Turned out he had just lost a contact lens and was yelling at his two friends walking up behind him.

Now if he had yelled "REACH FOR THE SKY" I would have beat him to death with a frozen turkey.

 

[TomSeller]

Funny story, I was in a store recently and a teenager behind me yelled FREEZE! Turned out he had just lost a contact lens and was yelling at his two friends walking up behind him.

And you did not shoot him?

 

[texasjohn]

Funny story, I was in a store recently and a teenager behind me yelled FREEZE! Turned out he had just lost a contact lens and was yelling at his two friends walking up behind him.

Now if he had yelled "REACH FOR THE SKY" I would have beat him to death with a frozen turkey.

Dude was out of contact, at his age, he should know to text his buddies to get their attention. :shocked: