Reloading ammo

[Soundguy]

Yes, the M93 (lots of Spanish Mauser's) are the ones that you see talk of being weak. It's not really that they are weak ... but there was an influx of them that were sporterized and rebarreled from 7x57 to .308 win and that's too much of a pressure difference in the eyes of some. Some lab said they proofed it but the prevailing conventional wisdom says don't do it. Jerry Kuhnhausen (the Yoda of gunsmithing) talks about "setback" of the bolt face/lugs in his Mauser book due to metal being soft. They are perfectly fine if you keep them in the pressure range they were designed for.

M98's are among the strongest there is ... once the bolt is fully locked! The story jix told sounds like the bolt face set off the high primer before the bolt was closed/locked all the way. I guess a sufficently hot load wouldn't be contained by a bolt setting off a high primer when the bolt has just begun to lock ... sending the bolt backward like a rocket. Plausible.

I've seen lots of high primers that won't go off even with a foreign pin and instead finish seating with the first pin strike.

I also have seen guns with no pin spring and very light impressions from the pin on cha,bred ammo just from the bolt stripping it from the mag and chambering it. Lastly, look at tube magazine guns, flat or round nose ammo set right on the primers...

I think a flat bolt face would have seated a primer not detonated it, unless there was a fault with the bolt and there was fire pin protrusion.

When I feed 35 rem or 30-30 in my lever guns, the full force of spring compression is on primer and projectile flat or round nose.

For a bolt face detonation to even be plausible / possible, there were other problems imho

I'll stop just short of saying not possible, and say there is some part of the story we are not hearing.

 

[the old grind]

Yes, something seems odd there. Without being fully seated the primer's anvil would be far from the compound in the base of the cup, where a FP strike might only further seat the primer, even sans discharge, as stated above. (good call, SG)

M-98s are cock-on-opening and the firing pin would be fully retracted once the action was opened. On a '93, -4, -5, or -6 (cock-on-closing) the FP would be retract only near the beginning of the closing/camming cycle. Being controlled-round-feed, it's possible that the primer was distorted/mangled enough to light it off, perhaps catching on the bolt face's lower edge as the round slid under the extractor. The incident could then occur well before the bolt's locking lugs contacted the receiver's lugs. It would be easy for early discharge to launch the bolt rearward. I imagine the primer flew to timbuktu and wasn't available to be analyzed, but its corpse could add insight to the exact cause.

No matter how you spin the details or parse the possibilities this apparently did happen. Point is, for many reasons primers must be fully seated & IMO, as that of others, checked individually. This type of scrutiny is why many of us shy from progressive reloading. One can get caught up in rds/hr at the expense of careful inspection. Once again, IMO loading 'hot' is among the worst reasons to reload. Case & throat life are compromised, trajectories are rarely 'flattened' significantly, a game animal will not feel or go down more swiftly due to extra ft/lbs of NRG (esp if passing thru'), and anything shot beyond the useful range of the caliber should be passed on or stalked closer to.

btw, I migrated to this site (also to PM, & HGS) after leaving a reloading forum whose goals were too often creating needless wildcats to fill micro-niches between existing calibers ('I did it myself..') or trying to get 'another 200-300 fps' where others, including makers, had 'known when to say when'. Few have reinvented the wheel successfully, and P O Ackley himself said "('improved calibers') do little to justify their existence." That's perhaps more true today than in his time. Oh, and the beauty of the '98's design is that many features insure against over-pressure loads or poor metallurgy, esp as expected during the years of transition to 'smokeless'. (Know Kuhnhausen, Olsen, Walsh, ... know Mausers. )

 

[Soundguy]

Yup, I might expect to see this on an older action, a 98 is the last one I would expect to see it on. I'd even say an arisake action more so than the true 98, due the the bolt differences. For instance, holding trigger on a 98 when closing the bolt on an empty chamber is OK, not so on an arisaka..

 

[RobertN]

Lot of good in depth discussion of this lately on Calguns.net reloading section.
Ammo and Reloading - Calguns.net

I am still on a single stage Rockchucker for last 30 years. Works great. I do everything in batches. But I do not shoot 200+ rounds a week either.

 

[Soundguy]

I hear ya. I might make at most 20 rounds at a time.. I am big into tweaking small changes at a time, not making cases of ammo. If I want cases of ammo, I can get milsurp spam cans.

 

[jix]

Yes, the M93 (lots of Spanish Mauser's) are the ones that you see talk of being weak. It's not really that they are weak ... but there was an influx of them that were sporterized and rebarreled from 7x57 to .308 win and that's too much of a pressure difference in the eyes of some. Some lab said they proofed it but the prevailing conventional wisdom says don't do it. Jerry Kuhnhausen (the Yoda of gunsmithing) talks about "setback" of the bolt face/lugs in his Mauser book due to metal being soft. They are perfectly fine if you keep them in the pressure range they were designed for.

M98's are among the strongest there is ... once the bolt is fully locked! The story jix told sounds like the bolt face set off the high primer before the bolt was closed/locked all the way. I guess a sufficently hot load wouldn't be contained by a bolt setting off a high primer when the bolt has just begun to lock ... sending the bolt backward like a rocket. Plausible.

Thanks for your insight, Hutchman. That is precisely what happened; The round detonated before the action was fully closed. The was shear evidence to both of the locking lug shoulders, which proved that happened. It takes a vigourous slamming forward of the bolt to detonate a proud primer, even so. It was also likely that there was too much wear in the recessed shoulders where the bolt lugs are supposed to lock in. I agree hat the German made mauser is usually a good and strong action, but mil surplus conversion guns do not always have serial matched parts, where the fit and finish are correct. A .300 magnum load is also much hotter than a Mauser action is built to withstand. Not all Mauser actions were built by German factories with German proof markings.

it was plain that the principal cause of the referenced accident was a proud primer, other factors were involved also. The remains of that gun are not now available for detailed examination, and the gun was "sporterized"with an aftermarket barrel made by Douglas chambered for the .300 Winchester magnum and fitted with a drllled and tapped scope mount. It was plainly not a good weapon for so heavy a load and had never been proofed after it was so modified. I think that it was sold through Parker-Hale, but I cannot be certain of that.

The guy who lost his thumb was employed as a gunsmith by a now defunct company in Edmonton Alberta owned by one James Martin called "Northwestern Tool and Arms.. a now bankrupt store front operation. I personally knew the personnel that were involved, and lost money in dealing with them dujring the late '70s. It was not a businesslike operation to say the least.

 

[Gary Fowler]

I have decided on a Hornady Lock n Load AP press. We will eventually be loading a variety of rounds including 45 LC, 45 Auto, .357 and 9mm so easy of die changes is a Plus. One vender from Paris Texas had a Hornady AP but wanted over $100 more than I can get it on line for so I will be ordering it from MidSouth along with shell plates for the calibers mentioned. I will need a few other things like case trimmer and primer turner tray. I did pick up a Lee hand primer today and the for certain necessary bullet extractor for the messed up rounds that are bound to happen plus Titanium Nitride 45LC dies. I also got a vibratory brass cleaner, cleaning media, several hundred rounds (all I could find) of 200 gr. cast lead for the 45 LC, 100 brass cases for 45LC, a cleaning pan to separate the brass from the media, a bottle of case lube, a case lube pad (it doubles as a shell case holder), a 50 round shell case holder and 1# of Unique powder plus 2# of Tightgroup (all that was available in both of those also).
Oh and 1000 primers, I think I am almost ready to start as soon as my press arrives. It seems popular pistol powders like Unique, W231 and Trailboss for the cowboy loads are in short supply to non- existent, much like the .22 shells.

I will order the loader next week after doing a bit more research to make sure that it is the one I want.

 

[Soundguy]

A 98 action should be fine to build a 300 mag on.

It sounds like this one was hotrodded on a worn out action to begin with.. which is where the bulk of the problem most likely occurred.

Why take a worn and stretched action, then sporterize it with a top end cartridge?

Sounds like someone got their gunsmith ticket from a cereal box to me....

And they were equally care full with reloading skills.

Hot loads and prowd primers.

Sounds like a comedy of errors all compounding


No mystery here from the facts presented.

A competent smith would check out an action before rebarreling,

8 mm Mauser is .323

Older commission actions were .318

300 win mag is .308

Meaning it wasnt a simple chamber ream job, otherwise the projectile could roll out the bbl after bouncing and banging down the bore.

This means a new bbl, which means a new chamber

Something is simply not adding up here.

98 's have gas relief

Another thing to look at a fire out of battery is pressure.

Pressure results from deflagrating powder in a confined space. A case not supported by a chamber should peel like a grape, like tossing a round in a fire to cook off with very little going on.

Again.. only going on what is presented.. but I'd have to see proof of the action used and all the details.

I've been shooting and collecting milsurps for decades, and reloading as well.

None of this adds up.

Older action may bee.. especially something designed around 7x57. .285, etc.


You see 98 actions on the following custom built rifles

338-06

35 whelen

458

( I shoot 458 win mag and 458 Lott, 375 holland and Holland mag, safari cartridges. 458 DWARFS 300 win mag, and the more power full 300 weather by mag. .. I also shoot that.). Heck I've seen 318 nitro express !, on a 98 action, ...

Something ain't panning out..... just saying...

 

[hutchman]

I have decided on a Hornady Lock n Load AP press. We will eventually be loading a variety of rounds including 45 LC, 45 Auto, .357 and 9mm so easy of die changes is a Plus. One vender from Paris Texas had a Hornady AP but wanted over $100 more than I can get it on line for so I will be ordering it from MidSouth along with shell plates for the calibers mentioned. I will need a few other things like case trimmer and primer turner tray. I did pick up a Lee hand primer today and the for certain necessary bullet extractor for the messed up rounds that are bound to happen plus Titanium Nitride 45LC dies. I also got a vibratory brass cleaner, cleaning media, several hundred rounds (all I could find) of 200 gr. cast lead for the 45 LC, 100 brass cases for 45LC, a cleaning pan to separate the brass from the media, a bottle of case lube, a case lube pad (it doubles as a shell case holder), a 50 round shell case holder and 1# of Unique powder plus 2# of Tightgroup (all that was available in both of those also).
Oh and 1000 primers, I think I am almost ready to start as soon as my press arrives. It seems popular pistol powders like Unique, W231 and Trailboss for the cowboy loads are in short supply to non- existent, much like the .22 shells.

I will order the loader next week after doing a bit more research to make sure that it is the one I want.

That's excellent! Without the case feeder you can still do 400-500rds an hour.

Mine came from Midsouth too! They sponsor one of the guys in our club ... who also just happened to win this years Bianchi Cup.

I cast my own lead bullets too so it sounds like you'll be setup to have fun. For my cast bullets I seat and crimp in different stations (crimp of lead bullets is usually with Lee Factory Crimp Die). With a progressive it's hard to watch everything so here is how I usually roll:

Station 1: Deprime/Size
Station 2: Prime, expand, powder drop (with the PTX die)
Station 3: RCBS - Lockout die. It's case activated so if you have the wrong case (like my example of loading 9mm and a 380 sneaks in there) or high/low powder charge it will lock the press up. Good squib insurance!
Station 4: Bullet Seater
Station 5: Crimp (Usually use Lee FC die for lead)

For priming, I made my own extra priming tubes so I can have 1,000 small or large primers ready per session. I fill my tubes with a Frankford Arsenal Vibra-Prime. Trust me, you'll want this. Stabbing primers with a pickup tube is for the birds! One of my friends from our club suggested it to me so I'm passing that wisdom along.

Vibra Prime Primer Tube Loader by FRANKFORD ARSENAL

Hornady for 2015 makes a cool vibrating primer filler that looks like a 1911 but it is more $$$
http://www.cabelas.com/product/HORNADY-PRIMER-TUBE-FILLER/1957326.uts

I recently added the light strip which I like a lot as I can now see down in the case pretty good ... I really don't need to when I use the RCBS lockout die but I still like to look in the case:
Hornady Lock-N-Load LED Light Strip

Dan at Inline Fabrication is a great guy and makes cool roller handles, lights, mounts, better trays etc. for Dillon, Hornady etc. I have his ERGO "Short" handle on mine (you can see it in the pic I previously posted) which I also recommend! The LNL primes on the up stroke and the design of this handle is more comfortable but more importantly allows you to get better leverage and feel seating the primer.

Hornady | Inline Fabrication

I also use the micrometer powder stem on the powder thrower. I keep a log book and when I find a load I like I write the micrometer setting down so when I go back to making that load again I can just dial in the number and throw some charges and verify them with the scale to get quickly going again after a change over.

Pistol Micrometer for New Rotor by HORNADY RELOADING TOOLS

I've probably spent a fortune in LNL die bushings as like I said before .... I reload for just about everything. I even converted my RCBS Rockchucker to the LNL bushing system so I can pop dies with the LNL bushings in either press.

It will take you a while to get the hang of things. Make sure it have it mounted solid (that goes with any press). If you have hangups check youtube or the web. Every press regardless of manufacturer has its own quirks. I like mine and the way it is setup now I can run 1,000 an hour and that's without rushing.

I'm also a NRA Metallic Cartridge Reloading instructor and I try to stay vendor neutral in my classes and talk about all the presses (because everyone has different budgets and goals) but feel you can't go wrong with either the LNL or the 650 for a progressive. I'm not 100% loyal to any brand thought, I have and use equipment from all the manufactures ... I've figured out what works over time and don't really care who makes it as long is it gets the job done without raising my blood pressure. I will say Hornady has been just as good to me as Dillon's crazy warranty. If I have a problem I call them up and they send me a part for free.

Enjoy your new toys!

 

[the old grind]

Good call on the L-n-L press! :thumbsup:

Had a winner in the gunsmithing forum of another site just recently. Customer had brought in a .338 LM on an M 700 action that was having case heads separate 'on Factory ammo'. Fella said he'd hate to send it back to Rem & have to waaait for an iffy response (not my experience with them over a Rem/DPMS R-15) After many said how much that was 'pushing it' with the particular caliber/action combo (I agree), a dozen re-checks of head-space & die adjustment etc, and many advising "don't be responsible for whatever comes after you 'xxx'" more details emerged at length and the story became something sketchy and quite different.

Norma 'factories' had indeed been reloaded, the customer wasn't that experienced, or hadn't done them himself, and some other initial statements were clarified. I'll have to look again to see if the 'smith took the general tone of advice and walked away before sticking his neck where it would likely be bitten off after having anything to do with it. "Rem's deal, not yours! (warranty!)"

One issue with reloading as critical as substituting components (Start over!!) is substituting people. That a load works ok in another guy's gun is no assurance it's safe as is in another's. Shooting someone else's hand-loads, or offering yours for a gun they haven't been tested in are potential liability traps and worse yet if someone's injury can be blamed.

Always work up your loads with your gun(s) for your gun(s). You'll find plenty that work in several, perhaps easier done with HGs than hunting rifles. And, skip 'uber' loads that most shooting gains nothing from but headaches sooner or later. This s__ can be dangerous and I suggest anyone shooting your hand-loads be 'in on' the workups, accepting responsibility man-to-man if not in a courtroom later. Seems that every disaster story starts out with someone doing everything right. All too often a careless slip isn't noticed, or even proven by later analysis.

Soundguy, my 'hotties' are 9.3 x 62 (CZ550) and .270 Wby (Mk V). Like with my other reloading 'pets' (many) I've never approached recipe 'max' charges or velocities, or sought factory level power. Most of my old mil '98s are still in 8 x 57, and I won't shoot 8x57 or 7.62 NATO 'mil-surp' in a civilian arm. (MG ammo! corrosive primers used into the 80's, dubious accuracy) What I've learned most from reloading may be the list of apparently 'logical' things I won't do.