The reality of aluminum body panels.

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   / The reality of aluminum body panels. #171  
And, when they are replaced, they cost more than a steel one.

Nope. The rear quarter panel for a '15 F150 costs exactly the same as one for a '14 F150. Exactly. To the penny. Myth busted.

Which leads me to believe this is only happening, because of the government forcing them to increase fuel mileage.

Bingo! The 2015 F150 is the ONLY full-sized truck that is CAFE positive (meaning it meets the CAFE requirements for that vehicle) and isn't 'borrowing' fuel economy from smaller vehicles to meet the standard.
 
   / The reality of aluminum body panels. #172  
If by "it" you mean how much more does it cost to repair and or replace, than the steel panel?

I can answer that. Based on my experiences repairing aluminum hoods, and hatches, and aluminum Grumman vehicles. And, based on what I saw when the company that acquired our body shop, set up a facility to repair all aluminum cars, it's pretty close to double the cost, to repair or replace, with steel vs. aluminum.

This is partially because an aluminum panel, is less often repairable than a steel one. And, when they are replaced, they cost more than a steel one.

Often, what would be considered an moderately easy repair, on a steel panel, is scrap, if it is an aluminum panel.

There is no doubt, the repair costs will be higher. And, so will the insurance costs. But, insurance company's will not immediately rate the new F150's to reflect all that. They don't get together and set prices, so even if they want to double the cost of premiums on the new F150, they won't. Because, they will be afraid the other company's won't follow along, and they will lose customers. The rates will eventually creep up over time.

In the past, when a vehicle has a high repair cost, during many long discussion with insurance agents I worked with, I learned, the insurance company's only make the owners of those vehicles pay part of those higher costs, in the form of higher rates. They spread the rest out, among all the policy holders.

So, as aluminum use is increased, we will all see increases in insurance costs. Because, even if you are not driving an aluminum vehicle, you may in fact, run into one.

The technology to build aluminum vehicles is not new. And, they could have done so, a long time ago, if the manufacturers would have thought it was worth doing. Which leads me to believe this is only happening, because of the government forcing them to increase fuel mileage.

I agree with your logic. How much more should this repair have cost in your professional opinion? Here is the invoice from the article.

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   / The reality of aluminum body panels. #173  
Nope. The rear quarter panel for a '15 F150 costs exactly the same as one for a '14 F150. Exactly. To the penny. Myth busted.

Bingo! The 2015 F150 is the ONLY full-sized truck that is CAFE positive (meaning it meets the CAFE requirements for that vehicle) and isn't 'borrowing' fuel economy from smaller vehicles to meet the standard.

To be completely fair, the aluminum panel should cost more. I think ford may be eating some cost on this panel or making no margin on it .
 
   / The reality of aluminum body panels. #174  
To be completely fair, the aluminum panel should cost more. I think ford may be eating some cost on this panel or making no margin on it .

My guess is there is a core charge as the Al panel will be recycled much more easily than the steel one, negating some of the cost.
 
   / The reality of aluminum body panels. #175  
My guess is there is a core charge as the Al panel will be recycled much more easily than the steel one, negating some of the cost.

Yeah, at about 35 cents per pound, a fender should get them about $5 back.
 
   / The reality of aluminum body panels. #177  
Nope. The rear quarter panel for a '15 F150 costs exactly the same as one for a '14 F150. Exactly. To the penny. Myth busted.

So, all the years I saw aluminum parts with astronomical prices were negated by your insistence that this part is the exact same price?

It may be listed at the same price, it may not. It may be a ploy by Ford, to leave the price unchanged for now, so people don't freak out. They certainly are savoy enough to see this kind of publicity as bad.

There is no question raw aluminum sheet metal costs more than steel. And, no auto maker is I have ever dealt with has ever been generous when it comes to crash parts. They are a high profit item to them.

So, you can believe what you want. I don't believe for one second, that part is going to cost the same, in the end.
 
   / The reality of aluminum body panels. #178  
When you do things in quantity, you get a much better price. Has there ever been an all-aluminum vehicle produced in the numbers that the F150 is? Didn't think so. So, we really don't have anything to compare it to in apples to apples form.

If these Al parts were so much more expensive, why didn't the cost of the truck (comparable models) not skyrocket compared to the '14 model? The F150 and Mustang have had aluminum hoods for years, and they still seem to be doing well. Again, I think this is much ado about nothing.
 
   / The reality of aluminum body panels. #179  
I've read some of the 175 responses, but my questions are: How much weight is saved on any comparable model? Did it really make that much of a difference in mpg? And isn't the truck weight a factor when towing a trailer i.e. isn't a heavier truck more stable for towing? It seems to me that mpg can be increased a bit without sacrificing the ability of the truck, but not a whole lot.
 
   / The reality of aluminum body panels.
  • Thread Starter
#180  
Nope. The rear quarter panel for a '15 F150 costs exactly the same as one for a '14 F150. Exactly. To the penny. Myth busted.
.
Not really. Just because Ford charges the same doesn't mean they cost the same to produce. Common sense will tell you it likely costs more. But you guys seem to believe that somehow there are no additional costs associated with manufacturing, repairing, or insuring aluminum body vehicles which is simply not possible. There are going to be additional costs which I suspect will decrease over time but there is a difference. Another article that discussed aluminum body panels.

2015 Ford F-150: How Much More Will the Aluminum Truck Cost to Insure and Repair?
Will the Aluminum 2015 Ford F-150 Cost More to Insure and Repair? Here’s What Experts Are Saying Right Now


January 23, 2014 at 9:21 am by Alexander Stoklosa

“If I dent this door, will the repair break the national budget? Hmm . . . better text Barack.”

When Ford unveiled the new, aluminum-bodied 2015 F-150 pickup at the 2014 Detroit auto show, it touched off a firestorm of speculation and inquiry. The central topic? How insuring and repairing a truck made from the lightweight material might affect the wallets of the hundreds of thousands of annual F-150 buyers. Knowing that truck shoppers prioritize low cost of ownership, Ford came prepared, stating on the 2015 F-150 page on its consumer site that “repair and insurance costs are expected to be competitive with the previous F-150.” But is that true? To find out, we consulted Ford’s own parts site, queried local repair shops, and even bugged an insurance think-tank. Read on for our findings.

2015 Ford F-150 repair

Parts Costs: It’s a simple fact that raw aluminum costs more than raw steel, which leads one to believe that the F-150’s aluminum body parts will be more expensive than the outgoing model’s comparable steel parts. But Ford could decide to sell the parts at cost—or even at a loss—in order to meet its claim, or perhaps cost parity will be achieved simply due to the sheer number of pieces Ford will produce. For now, however, Ford’s parts site quotes a replacement 2004 F-150 hood—the first year that panel was rendered in aluminum as standard—at $1092.72; a steel unit for the older 2003 F-150 costs $647. The aluminum hoods for 2009–14 F-150s are slightly less expensive, at $880. However anecdotal, Ford has seemingly already been able to take some cost out of aluminum stuff already. One could reasonably assume that there are more newer F-150s on the road, however, which would require producing more inventory, thereby lowering costs. (You see the rabbit hole we’re diving down here?) Even so, the outgoing F-150 hood costs more than the older steel piece.

2015 Ford F-150 cutaway

What the not-so-aluminum side of the 2015 F-150 looks like.

Repair Costs: We called the local body shop that handles many of our repairs, VCR Automotive, to see what kind of cost differential exists with aluminum versus steel. Unsurprisingly, we were told that fixing aluminum costs more. Independent shops like VCR tend to flat-out replace a dented/crumpled aluminum panel, since the properties of the metal make cleanly popping out dents difficult. It’s not a shocker that doing so adds dollar signs to repair bills. The F-150’s panels are riveted and glued in place, and that glue isn’t cheap: Our man from VCR says it costs “about $60 per packet,” and that he recently used five packets to repair both aluminum quarter panels on a damaged car. ANd that’s not even counting the extra labor involved. We were also told that insurance companies often try to pressure body shops into cheaper repairs, which means, if it’s possible, merely filling in the dent and then sanding and repainting the panel.

As for extreme damage to either the cab or the bed, VCR said it would probably just replace the whole of either, as welding aluminum patch panels into, say, a pickup bed’s forward bulkhead, requires a clean room to prevent contamination of the metal. And even getting panels can be tricky: Clean-room-equipped shops are pretty rare, and we were told that many manufacturers won’t even provide replacement aluminum body sections, as a precaution against contamination. (If aluminum is contaminated, it will corrode faster than normal.) What about small repairs, such as hail damage? We spoke with Dent Wizard, a national paintless dent-repair company, and were told that if an aluminum panel could be repaired (and not all can be), customers are levied a 25-percent upcharge for the effort. Dent Wizard also reiterated aluminum’s resistance to clean dent removal.

◾10 Things You Didn’t Know About the 2015 Ford F-150
◾Comparison Test: 2014 Ford Focus SE vs. Mazda 3 i Grand Touring
◾Comparison Test: 2013 Ford F-150 vs. 2013 Ram 1500, 2014 Chevrolet Silverado 1500


Insurance Costs: Common sense says that if something costs more to repair, it’s going to cost more to insure, but this might not actually be the case. We called Allstate Insurance Company to find out whether it had run the numbers yet on the new F-150, but it it couldn’t yet speak to the impact of the steel-to-aluminum switch on the F-150, telling us that general data regarding aluminum repairs is thin. We then reached out to Dr. Robert Hartwig, President and Economist at the Insurance Information Institute, and asked him to illuminate what kind of cost impact aluminum-bodied vehicles have to consumers. In the case of a high-volume car like the F-150, he believes the switch to an aluminum-intensive construction might increase owners’ insurance premiums slightly, but any increase likely wouldn’t be very noticeable.

How could this be? Dr. Hartwig pointed out that the portion of most drivers’ insurance premiums devoted to collision repair is rather small, with the majority given to liability coverage. Given that comprehensive and collision typically makes up about a third of a premium, any increase in repair costs won’t drastically affect overall premium rates, which are affected by a multitude of other factors. It was also stated that, in cases such as this one, in which a vehicle adopts new, pricier materials, insurers need time to gather more data before determining any adjustments to collision insurance costs relative to previous models. So we’re going to have to wait for the next-generation F-150 to hit the road—and for truck owners to start hitting stuff—before we learn whether an insurance penalty exists.

2015 Ford F-150

Ford’s Take—and the Takeaway: Finally, we reached out to Ford for its take on the matter. (What, you thought we’d just look at the consumer web site and call it a day?) Naturally, the Blue Oval’s spokespeople reiterated the company’s stance that the 2015 F-150’s repair and insurance costs would be competitive with those of the current rig, as well as the rest of the trucks in the segment. Speaking specifically to the cost of aluminum, a spokesperson told us that “while high-strength aluminum alloy is more expensive than steel on a pound-for-pound basis, we’ve developed manufacturing efficiencies to reduce this cost as much as possible.” (We’d also like to know whether Ford factors the enormous tooling equipment costs from the material switch into its claim.) To ease the minds of owners of damaged 2015-model-year (and beyond) F-150s, Ford plans to certify and equip 750 of its dealerships to handle collision repairs on the trucks, as well as “recognizing” (certifying) an additional 2000 independent shops for the same work.

Unfortunately, just as the debate on this topic has reached its frothiest, the truth is that we won’t know how it all will shake out until a few years down the line. Aluminum F-150 replacement parts and repair costs may slightly increase from today’s figures, although the numbers—as well as insurance costs—remain nebulous. But we suspect that the introduction of the all-aluminum 2015 Ford F-150 won’t end up being the financial apocalypse for owners that many are making it out to be. So let’s turn the wick down on the firestorm for a while, eh?


2015 Ford F-150: How Much More Will the Aluminum Truck Cost to Insure and Repair?
 
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