NX4510 HSTC Pricing

[MinnesotaEric]

I plow in much worse conditions than you show in the video with a power shuttle and I would also classify your video in the "how not to run a power shuttle" genre of short films. You aren't really moving that much snow. Having the tractor poorly ballasted doesn't excuse your poor technique either.

If you can't take off on that flat parking lot with that amount of snow without using the clutch something is seriously wrong with your setup.

And not for nothing in limited slip conditions when you get really good you can have the wheels going the opposite direction before you actually change direction.

Two things, with a slipping C6/C7 disk in my neck, I don't want to have the tractor's hydro clutch jerking me around and I also don't want to abuse the tires by spinning them excessively like I'm the Road Warrior. Since I could not get the hydro clutch to make a smooth direction change and the hydro clutch is hitting the same multi plate wet clutch the clutch pedal works, I took the job over. Moreover, when I asked, the owner told me he uses the clutch as well even though everybody is aware that a hydro shift doesn't require manually hitting the clutch, just matching the hydro's release speed with the manual throttle.

That all said, the take away is that with an HST, nobody second guesses each other because there is only one, very efficient way to change directions.

 

[TSO]

That all said, the take away is that with an HST, nobody second guesses each other because there is only one, very efficient way to change directions.

not just 1 ... Did you see that recent thread of the fella that bought the new Iseki compact (similar to the Massey 17xx). It has HST, but only 1 pedal. Direction is from a column lever. Strange. I prefer my dual pedals.

 

[TJP89]

not just 1 ... Did you see that recent thread of the fella that bought the new Iseki compact (similar to the Massey 17xx). It has HST, but only 1 pedal. Direction is from a column lever. Strange. I prefer my dual pedals.

Yeah, I would think a shuttle HST would take a lot of the HST benefits from that tractor, especially as the darn thing probably sticks like the range shifter. That would be really irritating.

 

[MinnesotaEric]

That's very interesting I and did not know that a computer controlled hydraulic shuttle could get confused like that. I wonder if other computer controlled hydraulic shuttles have the same problem or if it is specific to that system.

I don't have computer modulation on my hydraulic shuttle. A little spin in the wheels makes the direction change smoother and it works the same no matter the conditions.

I think the engine has a lot to do with making it work well. My pre Tier 4 engine has a lot of idle torque for the tractor size. Idle torque and peak torgue at 1700 RPM are almost the same. It's like a platau from 1000 to 1700 RPM before it starts falling off as RPM climb higher. Without that torque, I probably wouldn't like the power reverser. The hydraulic reverser will even work in top gear at idle, which I only tried once just to see if it would stall or not. It didn't. Honestly, it was the torque of this engine that hooked me on the sale.

My tractor isn't all roses and I'm not trying to say it's as convenient as HST. It's nothing like an HST for ease of use. Direction changes are harsh when in the middle gears that have a little speed but not enough gear to lug the engine. Plus if you're not adept at double clutching and rev matching, shifting on the fly will be a problem. As I said before, you have to enjoy the dance or this type of set up is not for you.

The value proposition RX to NX does not seem as extreme as the DS to CK comparison. The jump up in weight, lift and engine is not as compelling. I've read complaints about the RX not having good idle torque (blame a smallish [for that size tractor] 2.4L turbo tuned for emisions not max idle torque). So i wonder if it would have the same stalling problem that the kubota in the video had - or just wouldn't be that enjoyable to operate.

The purpose of my posts are not to argue which is better, HST or power reversers. If money were no issue I would have a New Holland TV6070 which is hydrostatic with auto downshifting. However, for most of us, money is an issue. So I just wanted to provide information on the other options. i.e. going bigger with a simpler transmission. For some bigger and simpler makes sense, for others (probably most) the conveniece of HST makes sense. To simply shout from the mountain tops that HST tractors are better is misleading. It depends on the intended use, the operator(s), and the budget.

I don't know if it is computer controlled or not, but shuttling direction from reverse to forward while manually controlling the throttle but letting the hydro shuttle do its thing resulted in a jerky transition. What I tried doing is adjusting the manual throttle up. When I did so, without manually clutching, the tractor would perma-lug no matter how much foot throttle I gave it. Thus my remark about the "clutch computer."

In comparison, the M135 I used a week earlier was childs play.

 

[TJP89]

That's very interesting I and did not know that a computer controlled hydraulic shuttle could get confused like that. I wonder if other computer controlled hydraulic shuttles have the same problem or if it is specific to that system.

I don't have computer modulation on my hydraulic shuttle. A little spin in the wheels makes the direction change smoother and it works the same no matter the conditions.

I think the engine has a lot to do with making it work well. My pre Tier 4 engine has a lot of idle torque for the tractor size. Idle torque and peak torgue at 1700 RPM are almost the same. It's like a platau from 1000 to 1700 RPM before it starts falling off as RPM climb higher. Without that torque, I probably wouldn't like the power reverser. The hydraulic reverser will even work in top gear at idle, which I only tried once just to see if it would stall or not. It didn't. Honestly, it was the torque of this engine that hooked me on the sale.

My tractor isn't all roses and I'm not trying to say it's as convenient as HST. It's nothing like an HST for ease of use. Direction changes are harsh when in the middle gears that have a little speed but not enough gear to lug the engine. Plus if you're not adept at double clutching and rev matching, shifting on the fly will be a problem. As I said before, you have to enjoy the dance or this type of set up is not for you.

The value proposition RX to NX does not seem as extreme as the DS to CK comparison. The jump up in weight, lift and engine is not as compelling. I've read complaints about the RX not having good idle torque (blame a smallish [for that size tractor] 2.4L turbo tuned for emisions not max idle torque). So i wonder if it would have the same stalling problem that the kubota in the video had - or just wouldn't be that enjoyable to operate.

The purpose of my posts are not to argue which is better, HST or power reversers. If money were no issue I would have a New Holland TV6070 which is hydrostatic with auto downshifting. However, for most of us, money is an issue. So I just wanted to provide information on the other options. i.e. going bigger with a simpler transmission. For some bigger and simpler makes sense, for others (probably most) the conveniece of HST makes sense. To simply shout from the mountain tops that HST tractors are better is misleading. It depends on the intended use, the operator(s), and the budget.

Yes, I agree, HST is not hands down better than gear, I think it can mostly come down to operator preference. Although there are some uses in which HST is clearly better, there are some where gear is better. Budget can also be a concern

 

[gladehound]

however, you admit that you can't set the throttle at a certain RPM, move forward, then just throw the thing into reverse. I of course slow down as I have to switch pedals, but I don't have to juggle with a throttle too.

Actually you can set the throttle at a certain RPM and only use the reverser for direction changes. I don't typically do this because I'm typically in a highish gear it has to be harder on everything to not drop RPM to shift. However, for snow removal if the surface is slick i have done this and it is very, very fast (and fun!). The wheels start spinning in reverse while you are still going forewards (as someone mentioned above). This would probably work for snow blowing since you'd be using a low gear anyway. However, I don't have a blower so I can't speak to it. My particular tractor may be limited for snow blowing because my slowest reverse gear is 0.9 mph if I remember correctly. I don't know if that would be slow enough in deep heavy snow with only 38 PTO hp. Again this comes down to each persons planned use. I never planned on owning a snow blower. Just not necessary where I live. Our heavy wet snows tend not to drift - so no problems with pilling it high next to the lane.

 

[MinnesotaEric]

not just 1 ... Did you see that recent thread of the fella that bought the new Iseki compact (similar to the Massey 17xx). It has HST, but only 1 pedal. Direction is from a column lever. Strange. I prefer my dual pedals.

That was interesting. I much prefer two side-by-side pedals. Especially I'm turned to the side when looking backward and changing directions running my rotary cutter. I turn my head to look forward, but I'd need to reposition my whole body to shuttle a direction change on the steering column. On the other hand, I bet other Eric is used to the position of the shuttle on the column and likes it there too.

 

[MinnesotaEric]

Yes, I agree, HST is not hands down better than gear, I think it can mostly come down to operator preference. Although there are some uses in which HST is clearly better, there are some where gear is better. Budget can also be a concern

Budget is huge. I was amazed that for about the same money I could get into a utility tractor with 80-90 hp for the same price as a 60 hp HST CUT, which is one full size smaller, not to mention, about 2,000 or more pounds lighter. For a moment I entertained going in that direction until I imagined attempting to drive around trees in the woods with a MF4608 or Deere 5083e and realized that it just wouldn't work well.

 

[gladehound]

Budget is huge. I was amazed that for about the same money I could get into a utility tractor with 80-90 hp for the same price as a 60 hp HST CUT, which is one full size smaller, not to mention, about 2,000 or more pounds lighter. For a moment I entertained going in that direction until I imagined attempting to drive around trees in the woods with a MF4608 or Deere 5083e and realized that it just wouldn't work well.

You'd have to change your tactic to driving over them :laughing:

 

[holeycow]

Orange you all glad I derailed this discussion? Lol.

I would be very hard pressed to buy an nx over an rx for my uses. In fact it wouldn't happen unless I had health issues requiring it. I would always prefer the more robust machine. Just me. And the comparable rx costs less?? A bargain then. No, make that a steal.

 

[holeycow]

There seems to be one clear advantage that an hst has over a gear; the ability to change ground speed without affecting pto speed. That is a nice touch! It is something I wish I could do at times. Given a torquey engine I can't see any other advantages, based on this discussion. Except in the case of physical limitations of the operator (bad knees or such).

Taking into account that I am never in a race, as that always causes more problems than it is worth when it comes to equipment......

 

[DK35vince]

Yeah, I would think a shuttle HST would take a lot of the HST benefits from that tractor, especially as the darn thing probably sticks like the range shifter. That would be really irritating.

Why would the shuttle lever stick like the range shifter.
The shuttle levers flip very quick and easy, you can use you finger tips to flip the levers.
I have run a DK 35 Hst with the twin peddles multiple times.
I can flip my shuttle lever for forward'/reversing on my shuttle DK 35 just as fast as I could move my foot from one peddle to the next to the forward/reverse peddles on the HST model.
I have 8 forward and 8 reverse speeds.
Whatever gear I am using in forward, I will be it that same gear and speed in reverse.

 

[TSO]

There seems to be one clear advantage that an hst has over a gear; the ability to change ground speed without affecting pto speed. That is a nice touch! It is something I wish I could do at times. Given a torquey engine I can't see any other advantages, based on this discussion. Except in the case of physical limitations of the operator (bad knees or such).

Taking into account that I am never in a race, as that always causes more problems than it is worth when it comes to equipment......

Some of us that have size limitations because of various reasons (for me, I do landscaping with my tractor and much bigger wouldn't fit where I'd need it)... So that's one factor. And again, for those of us that mainly do precision work, HST is the clear winner.

Just because YOU don't like HST, doesn't mean that everyone else should follow suit.

Personally, I could have probably gone a half size bigger, but then I'd lose HST as an option, and I would be FAR less efficient & productive. For me, and other people that work commercially with their machine, time is money. For you, it apparently isn't ... And I'm happy for you. But again, just because you can't see the benefits of HST, doesn't mean you should condemn it. There's a reason why the vast majority of CUT'S are HST.

 

[DK35vince]

Just because YOU don't like HST, doesn't mean that everyone else should follow suit.

Really !! That does go both ways.

 

[TSO]

That does go both ways.
You should maybe listen to your own advice.

I do... I point out facts. I've pointed out where HST is better, and where shuttle is better. I haven't condemned shuttle. I haven't questioned why people buy a CUT instead of a larger tractor.

Just because a person doesn't like HST and says they would rather buy Larger shuttle tractor, doesn't mean they are right for everyone else. That's all...

 

[holeycow]

Ya.

Btw, I think a livestock operation qualifies as commercial. If I was landscaping and such I would own a skidsteer......

And I never said I didn't like hst, as I know not much about it. I was trying to get a clear idea as to its advantages or not. After all this discussion/argument I came to the conclusion that it has only one. Or maybe two......along with some disadvantages. Of course.

I have seen a lot of "get an hst!" on here and I simply wondered why ( when apparently you pay a lot for it ).

The answer I see is "faster"; "easier". Well maybe so in certain applications. Probably not so much if you can drive...... and not at all in most day to day operations for many.

I also see a lot of "upgrading" which is in a lot of cases people buying too small of a machine to start with and having to buy something bigger because they thought they needed to spend the money on hst. I also see people expecting one machine to be able to do all things: but maybe they should buy a lawnmower to mow the lawn and a real tractor to do tractor work. And compromise on the one that is of least importance. In my world that is the lawnmower.....

Oh, and another btw, I think for me I would do just as well without shuttle, as my tractors with reverse on the gearshift seem at least as easy to transition forward to reverse as my one shuttle. I would give up the shuttle instantly to have the ability to shift ranges on the fly like I can with one tractor ( which also has "agricultural" gearing where ratios in different ranges slip between others in adjacent ranges ).

 

[TSO]

Ya.

Btw, I think a livestock operation qualifies as commercial. If I was landscaping and such I would own a skidsteer......

By the way, a livestock operation is considered a farming operation more than a commercial operation. Vastly different from landscaping, and vastly different than most CUT users tasks. I've said many times that for farming use, a shuttle is typically better than HST ... But I've also pointed out, like so many others have, that the vast majority of CUT buyers aren't farming with their CUT.

And, maybe you aren't a landscaper ... And your skid steer comment lacks absolute relevancy because of it ... But, I am. And while I'd like to compliment my outfit with a tracked skid steer, if I could only choose one machine, it would be a CUT. Many landscapers I speak with agree. But that's an entirely different discussion.

If there's a thread about which tractor is better for farm use, shuttle or HST ... Even though you haven't had experience with HST, at least your comments would offer more relevancy.

I'm just trying to help new purchasers make informed decisions. You telling people that they should spend their money on a bigger machine just because it's bigger isn't necessarily helpful... That's all.

 

[MinnesotaEric]

Ya.

Btw, I think a livestock operation qualifies as commercial. If I was landscaping and such I would own a skidsteer......

Depends on how you claim it on your taxes. Are your livestock pasture pets?

 

[holeycow]

No. Nor are my tractors.

 

[holeycow]

So am I. And many here saying to buy hst because it's easier and faster when the "faster" part is, in most cases moot and the easier part is mostly an operator skills thing is also counterproductive to many who have no idea.