NX4510 HSTC Pricing

[GManBart]

I'm not so sure a power shuttle tranny would be as good for snow thrower ops, although I'm sure it would get the job done.

The problem, as I see it, is that you want the engine to be at PTO speed to run the thrower properly, and engine speed is what varies ground speed with a shuttle tranny. That means when you want to slow down, or speed up, for the conditions/depth of snow, you have to change gears, push in the clutch, or accept that the thrower is at the wrong speed and may not throw the snow far enough. With an HST transmission you set the RPM to PTO speed, and move the pedals to vary speed within the range selected...very easy to do and the thrower is running at the proper speed the whole time.

Keep in mind I don't own anything with an HST transmission right now, so I'm not overly biased in their favor. I love the power shuttle in my backhoe, and I know I can do delicate, accurate, fast work with it, but it would definitely be a touch easier/faster if it were an HST system.

 

[gladehound]

GManBart - I 100% agree. Unless the gear tractor is much larger, which it may be if you are shopping by price and comparing large basic models to smaller premium models. You can easily end up with 10+ more PTO hp with the gear tractor at the same price point.

 

[TJP89]

I'm not so sure a power shuttle tranny would be as good for snow thrower ops, although I'm sure it would get the job done.

The problem, as I see it, is that you want the engine to be at PTO speed to run the thrower properly, and engine speed is what varies ground speed with a shuttle tranny. That means when you want to slow down, or speed up, for the conditions/depth of snow, you have to change gears, push in the clutch, or accept that the thrower is at the wrong speed and may not throw the snow far enough. With an HST transmission you set the RPM to PTO speed, and move the pedals to vary speed within the range selected...very easy to do and the thrower is running at the proper speed the whole time.

Keep in mind I don't own anything with an HST transmission right now, so I'm not overly biased in their favor. I love the power shuttle in my backhoe, and I know I can do delicate, accurate, fast work with it, but it would definitely be a touch easier/faster if it were an HST system.

That is exactly the way I see it. With a HST tractor, ground speed can be almost completely independent of Engine RPM and PTO power. Not so with ANY gear tractor. My primary work is with a loader, snow pushing, grading, and occasional mower work. There is no way an operator on a gear tractor can push back dirt or snow piles as fast as I can with a HST, I find it very hard to believe you can power shuttle form 3-4 mph forward to 3-4 mph backward without clutching. Now, if I was using a tractor to mow a lot or constant field work, there is no way I would want HST.

 

[gladehound]

There is no way an operator on a gear tractor can push back dirt or snow piles as fast as I can with a HST, I find it very hard to believe you can power shuttle form 3-4 mph forward to 3-4 mph backward without clutching.

This is a perfect example of a price comparison because your CK35 HST is very similar in price to my DS4510HS. Some may object that these tractors are not in the same class. However, they are at the same price point and because of that they should be compared by potential buyers.

Based on your statement, I'm guessing you've never operated a power reverser. I've spent ample time on both HST and power reversers and there is no question that a DS4510HS will move snow and dirt faster than a CK35HST with experienced operators! Here's why:

First, you can't go through a cycle of scooping / dumping significantly faster than I can. I change directions in a gear that will do 3-4 mph all the time without clutching. Max speed in 4th gear on my DS4510HS is 4mph. Min speed in 4th gear is 1.4 mph. This is the gear I typically use for loader work. When changing directions I lift my foot off the throttle, the engine rapidly decelarates the tractor to 1.4 mph. I pop the reverser into neutral and cost until I want to go backwards (or use the brakes if I want to stop sooner, if in a pile you stop when going to neutral) then I flip the lever into reverse and use the throttle to control speed between 1.4 mph and 4 mph. If I need to use brakes and throttle at the same time I can easily toe the brakes and heal the throttle. It sounds complicated but I don't even have to think about it. It's like walking. Hard to learn but quickly becomes second nature. I'm not suggesting it's better or even for 90% of the people out there, but for the 10% that like the dance, it's a great set up.

Now consider that I have nearly twice the lift capacity, a bigger bucket, and substantially more weight and power. For each cycle I'm moving a lot more material. So even if you are 10% faster per cycle (which I doubt you are), it makes no difference. I can move way more material in the same amount of time.

CK35 HST verse CK35 gear the HST wins hands down.

 

[MinnesotaEric]

This is a perfect example of a price comparison because your CK35 HST is very similar in price to my DS4510HS. Some may object that these tractors are not in the same class. However, they are at the same price point and because of that they should be compared by potential buyers.

Based on your statement, I'm guessing you've never operated a power reverser. I've spent ample time on both HST and power reversers and there is no question that a DS4510HS will move snow and dirt faster than a CK35HST with experienced operators! Here's why:

First, you can't go through a cycle of scooping / dumping significantly faster than I can. I change directions in a gear that will do 3-4 mph all the time without clutching. Max speed in 4th gear on my DS4510HS is 4mph. Min speed in 4th gear is 1.4 mph. This is the gear I typically use for loader work. When changing directions I lift my foot off the throttle, the engine rapidly decelarates the tractor to 1.4 mph. I pop the reverser into neutral and cost until I want to go backwards (or use the brakes if I want to stop sooner, if in a pile you stop when going to neutral) then I flip the lever into reverse and use the throttle to control speed between 1.4 mph and 4 mph. If I need to use brakes and throttle at the same time I can easily toe the brakes and heal the throttle. It sounds complicated but I don't even have to think about it. It's like walking. Hard to learn but quickly becomes second nature. I'm not suggesting it's better or even for 90% of the people out there, but for the 10% that like the dance, it's a great set up.

Now consider that I have nearly twice the lift capacity, a bigger bucket, and substantially more weight and power. For each cycle I'm moving a lot more material. So even if you are 10% faster per cycle (which I doubt you are), it makes no difference. I can move way more material in the same amount of time.

CK35 HST verse CK35 gear the HST wins hands down.

Your description of a hydro-shuttle is how it is supposed to work, but in limited traction conditions, the hydro-shuttle requires manual clutching.

This came up in a comment in one of my videos this weekend: a guy with a Kubota M9540 said he'd fire me for riding or using the clutch while plowing, writing, "I have a 9540 and if you were driving my tractor you would be fired for riding the clutch and using it, you don't need to use the clutch its has a hydraulic shuttle."

What the commenter didn't realize is that the weight of the plow, the lack of ballast in the rear, combined with limited traction, confused the engagement (or release) timing of the hydro shuttle. Not wanting to get "fired" by random internet commentators on my videos, :thumbsup: I wrote back, explaining: "Remember, with a heavy plow up front, and using a tall enough gear to clear parking lots, that the hydraulic shuttle will first spin wheels, then stall when the tractor finds traction but isn't moving fast enough to prevent a stall. I discussed this problem [in the video] when I said that I tried upping the throttle but that action confused the "clutch computer," and so I reverted to driving the 9540 like an old style clutch where the operator slips to clutch only as needed so as to not stall the engine while increasing the travel speed from a dead stop. Moreover, you're using the term riding the clutch incorrectly: Riding the clutch is continually slipping the clutch and not allowing the friction plate to to lock against the pressure plate and flywheel. I never ride the clutch as doing so leads to premature failure." 

 

[paulfun9]

Well that's just an other reason to take the computer out of the tractor market! My old power shuttle has never given me a stall situation when using it in any gear at any speed. It simply works as its intended to and I guess if I come across a good deal on a newer power shuttle I will have to test it to see if its a computer making the decision or the operator that's actually controlling it. If the computer is being fooled into thinking anything then the computer needs to be eliminated!

 

[GManBart]

That is exactly the way I see it. With a HST tractor, ground speed can be almost completely independent of Engine RPM and PTO power. Not so with ANY gear tractor. My primary work is with a loader, snow pushing, grading, and occasional mower work. There is no way an operator on a gear tractor can push back dirt or snow piles as fast as I can with a HST, I find it very hard to believe you can power shuttle form 3-4 mph forward to 3-4 mph backward without clutching. Now, if I was using a tractor to mow a lot or constant field work, there is no way I would want HST.

No argument there. I will point out that some power shuttles don't have a clutch pedal at all. With my backhoe I come to nearly a complete stop before switching directions, because I know that's an easy way to snap an axle...I haven't had it happen, but I'd rather not buy expensive parts I always came to nearly a stop before changing direction with an HST setup, but I don't think I was quite as careful about it (don't have to be really).

 

[Deerherd]

Your description of a hydro-shuttle is how it is supposed to work, but in limited traction conditions, the hydro-shuttle requires manual clutching.

This came up in a comment in one of my videos this weekend: a guy with a Kubota M9540 said he'd fire me for riding or using the clutch while plowing, writing, "I have a 9540 and if you were driving my tractor you would be fired for riding the clutch

I plow in much worse conditions than you show in the video with a power shuttle and I would also classify your video in the "how not to run a power shuttle" genre of short films. You aren't really moving that much snow. Having the tractor poorly ballasted doesn't excuse your poor technique either.

If you can't take off on that flat parking lot with that amount of snow without using the clutch something is seriously wrong with your setup.

And not for nothing in limited slip conditions when you get really good you can have the wheels going the opposite direction before you actually change direction.

 

[TJP89]

This is a perfect example of a price comparison because your CK35 HST is very similar in price to my DS4510HS. Some may object that these tractors are not in the same class. However, they are at the same price point and because of that they should be compared by potential buyers.

Based on your statement, I'm guessing you've never operated a power reverser. I've spent ample time on both HST and power reversers and there is no question that a DS4510HS will move snow and dirt faster than a CK35HST with experienced operators! Here's why:

First, you can't go through a cycle of scooping / dumping significantly faster than I can. I change directions in a gear that will do 3-4 mph all the time without clutching. Max speed in 4th gear on my DS4510HS is 4mph. Min speed in 4th gear is 1.4 mph. This is the gear I typically use for loader work. When changing directions I lift my foot off the throttle, the engine rapidly decelarates the tractor to 1.4 mph. I pop the reverser into neutral and cost until I want to go backwards (or use the brakes if I want to stop sooner, if in a pile you stop when going to neutral) then I flip the lever into reverse and use the throttle to control speed between 1.4 mph and 4 mph. If I need to use brakes and throttle at the same time I can easily toe the brakes and heal the throttle. It sounds complicated but I don't even have to think about it. It's like walking. Hard to learn but quickly becomes second nature. I'm not suggesting it's better or even for 90% of the people out there, but for the 10% that like the dance, it's a great set up.

Now consider that I have nearly twice the lift capacity, a bigger bucket, and substantially more weight and power. For each cycle I'm moving a lot more material. So even if you are 10% faster per cycle (which I doubt you are), it makes no difference. I can move way more material in the same amount of time.

CK35 HST verse CK35 gear the HST wins hands down.

I have actually used a power shuttle. but not with the loader work being the primary use. I should have qualified my above statement with the fact that the tractors have to be equal. Obviously the guy in a Case 75C is going to move snow faster than my little CK. You do have a point with more power at a lower price point. I actually considered going up a few sizes to a PS, but it was still more expensive as I didn't want the bare bones tractors. however, you admit that you can't set the throttle at a certain RPM, move forward, then just throw the thing into reverse. I of course slow down as I have to switch pedals, but I don't have to juggle with a throttle too. An experience operator with a foot throttle could do so, but he still has to drop RPMs, which is undesirable, especially in PTO use situations.

Now, when you have enough gears so that you can smoothly decrease speed independent of throttle, with either a glide shift or a two stage clutch, and power shuttle, the difference between the 2 narrows significantly. Of course that many gears are currently only available on bigger machines, where HST is not.

Price point being the same, It seems the speed or work done is close to the same, and tranny type is operator preference. I think HST is more flexible, so I'll stick with it unless I go much bigger.

 

[gladehound]

Your description of a hydro-shuttle is how it is supposed to work, but in limited traction conditions, the hydro-shuttle requires manual clutching.

That's very interesting I and did not know that a computer controlled hydraulic shuttle could get confused like that. I wonder if other computer controlled hydraulic shuttles have the same problem or if it is specific to that system.

I don't have computer modulation on my hydraulic shuttle. A little spin in the wheels makes the direction change smoother and it works the same no matter the conditions.

I think the engine has a lot to do with making it work well. My pre Tier 4 engine has a lot of idle torque for the tractor size. Idle torque and peak torgue at 1700 RPM are almost the same. It's like a platau from 1000 to 1700 RPM before it starts falling off as RPM climb higher. Without that torque, I probably wouldn't like the power reverser. The hydraulic reverser will even work in top gear at idle, which I only tried once just to see if it would stall or not. It didn't. Honestly, it was the torque of this engine that hooked me on the sale.

My tractor isn't all roses and I'm not trying to say it's as convenient as HST. It's nothing like an HST for ease of use. Direction changes are harsh when in the middle gears that have a little speed but not enough gear to lug the engine. Plus if you're not adept at double clutching and rev matching, shifting on the fly will be a problem. As I said before, you have to enjoy the dance or this type of set up is not for you.

The value proposition RX to NX does not seem as extreme as the DS to CK comparison. The jump up in weight, lift and engine is not as compelling. I've read complaints about the RX not having good idle torque (blame a smallish [for that size tractor] 2.4L turbo tuned for emisions not max idle torque). So i wonder if it would have the same stalling problem that the kubota in the video had - or just wouldn't be that enjoyable to operate.

The purpose of my posts are not to argue which is better, HST or power reversers. If money were no issue I would have a New Holland TV6070 which is hydrostatic with auto downshifting. However, for most of us, money is an issue. So I just wanted to provide information on the other options. i.e. going bigger with a simpler transmission. For some bigger and simpler makes sense, for others (probably most) the conveniece of HST makes sense. To simply shout from the mountain tops that HST tractors are better is misleading. It depends on the intended use, the operator(s), and the budget.