General "getting started" questions about building a barn

astrohip · Mar 8, 2015

Just closed on a new property, need to build a barn, and I am looking for feedback (and an education) from y'all. I have some general questions first, and then I can start to develop a more detailed plan (and come back with more specific questions).

At my old place, I had a 25x40 open-sided metal building, with concrete slab. It had a 12x25 tuff-shed (workshop) up against one end. Both were great to have (they were already there), but I've learned I want more space. I'm thinking 40/or/48 by 60 or so, with a workshop inside. Here are some thoughts & questions, love to hear your feedback.

This will be in Brenham TX, where the cold is not much of a factor, but heat is. I can easily live without any heat, or just heat in the shop part. But must have good ventilation for summers. And I know you will ask, "what are you going to do with it?" It will be to store my tractors, attachments, tools, mower, gators, trailers, etc. Just general farm & ranch stuff. Pleasure farm, not working.

* Metal or wood? It seems metal buildings are preferred, and I'm ok with that. My only concern is I love to hang things from the walls, and organize stuff. It seems with wood studs that's pretty easy; not sure how metal framing affects my desire to over-organize.

* It seems many of you build an outside area, covered but not enclosed, as an extension of your barns. Why would I need that? What do you do with it?

* I love having a workshop. My plan is to build it inside the barn, wood framed, probably around 20x25. Deck the top, and make that storage.

* What height do I want? I have no specific requirements (ie, special equipment), but want to have room for most possibilities.

* I'm intending to have big overhead doors, plus at least one std entry-type door. I need the doors for both entry & ventilation. But I would also like to be able to drive thru. It's much easier to drive in with a trailer, unhitch, and drive out, rather than back in. (see attached drawing, not to scale) But I'm thinking it's better to add Door "C" so I can drive thru and exit "A", rather than attempt to add Doors "B" and drive that way.

I'm at the stage where I just need info to help me create a general layout. Once I have a size & layout down, I will sketch it out and come back with questions about all the details--lights & drains & elec & etc.

My budget is generous, but not unlimited. Feel free to respond to any part of this you have feedback on. I've attached a pic of my old barn setup, so y'all can see how I used it. Plus a rough, not-to-scale of a new one, mainly so I could ask about door layouts.

Thanks!

SPIKER · Mar 8, 2015

first thing is to NOT get too jumpy, take a bit of time to explore the winds and sun/solar path on your land to see what the actual spot/layout would best fit those local conditions. It might be that you initially want the barn to go is the worst spot to put it after seeing how rains, wind, sun and such treats that spot. You might find that turning the barn a few degrees one way or the other can greatly increase the air flow in summer or decrease blowing dust, leaves or ?? etc...

One thing is to put clear panels at the top sides 3 or 4 feet to make use of solar lighting inside thru the day. Incorporate good ventilation from the get-go so heat in summer is mitigated along with steep south overhang to keep heat down in summer.

Open sheds are common for storing farm equipment it makes accessing & servicing equipment easy & keeps the rain/snow off the top or you will working on it.

Also plan ahead for the services you want and where you want/need them. If/When you want concrete make sure there are some underground piping for new or added services such as network, cameras or water/sewer.

M

Wagtail · Mar 8, 2015

This is the shed that I had built. Its front is south facing to keep it cool and minimise sun damage. A clear roof panel in the workshop provides all the light that I need from the sun. Build it away from trees, taking into consideration future growth... shade is nice but potential tree damage repair is expensive. This shed is all metal 'colorbond', which is fairly standard now in Australia and the manufacturer is more than happy to plan additional roller doors. ($)

If you can afford it, a reenforced concrete slab floor is a must-have. Implements can then be mounted on wheeled pallets to easily manoeuvre them & store them out of the way.

astrohip · Mar 8, 2015

Thanks Wagtail. Love that water collection system. I hadn't thought about one, but that's a great idea.

I plan on a concrete slab. And I have built dollies for most of my attachments. Here's one...

Wagtail · Mar 8, 2015

Ta for that astrohip. I'm not on 'town water' and would have included the tank in the plans anyway but the local Shire insisted on a water management system as part of their building approval. Which equals fees, fees & more fees leading to an increase of your property assessment 'cause you've made an improvement.

The water is used primarily to water the horses and, occasionally, to wash down the tractors when they get too dirty (when I can barely tell that they're JD green).

It's a 5000 litre tank and, just like a tractor, I should have gone bigger (10,000) but the one I got was on sale with the pump, delivered. Naturally, a month later they had a 10,000 litre package deal but it was too late by then.

Oh, I like the spray can rack. I'm going to nick that idea! :thumbsup:

NewfieDan · Mar 9, 2015

Will the metal clad building be too hot in the summer heat? It's been my experience that metal clad buildings are hotter on summer and colder in winter. Will the heat be too much in Texas?

You will most likely need some engineering for a shop as large as you are talking. The roof trusses might be hard to find for a 40/48 x 60 shop.

Like others have said, take some time and plan it out. It's worth in the long run. Will you need water, sewer(for bathroom or wash sink), telephone/intercom, security to protect your investments.

What will you be doing in the shop? Vehicle maintenance, wood working? What power will you need? The higher the roof the more lighting you will need during the dark. If you are doing vehicle mtce, consider low height lighting. A buddy did a lot of vehicle repair so I put on fluorescent lighting at about 2ft above ground. No trouble light for those brake jobs.

As for the concrete go little thicker to stop cracks. Here mine is about 3-1/2in. Where I lived before was about 5in. The old place had no cracks after 11yrs. Here mine was cracked after 1yr. And use lots of rebar. Lots up here use the wire mesh, but I find the mesh breaks and let's cracks happen.

astrohip · Mar 9, 2015

Good feedback. If metal gets too hot, what's the alternative? Stick frame? As far as engineering, I will ultimately go with a company that does this for a living, and if they need to adjust the size to fit some standards, that's easy to do. The area this is going is wide open, and flexible size-wise.

I have thought about water, etc. Security too, just not sure what to do on that front. Still thinking about that.

I don't need a lot of height, but don't want to design something too short either. I have pallet racks, and need to make sure they will fit in. I *think* they're 12' tall. I just play around in my barn--woodworking projects, tractor maint., general storage, etc.

Good info on the concrete. Will make sure I get a thick slab. We sometimes go thru drought cycles, and I'd like to make sure it doesn't shift & crack every time the ground heaves.

bigtiller · Mar 9, 2015

I built a tin shed in 2013 with 14' walls. For the ceiling, I put on the same tin as the walls have, and then I had fiberglass insulation blown in to an R42 factor.

It's not any hotter inside than it is outside. As a bonus, it is also quieter on windy or rainy days.

cmyoung2 · Mar 9, 2015

Progressive Farmer has a book on farm shops, lots of good ideas. Height is your friend, make your doors at least 9', maybe more. 9' handles most farm type trailers, most small to mid size tractors. Higher may be better. I generally like taller buildings, 12'+ inside height, or I will poke holes in the ceiling. Concrete is good, slope to a drain, but not too much slope, just enough so you can wash stuff down or out when needed. Add a bathroom. Repeat-Add a bathroom. Keeps wife happy when you can clean up before you come in the house, more convenient when you are in the middle of something, safer if you need to was down in a hurry after a spill. get a source of hot water and you are set. Doesn't have to be big, mine is 4x8 with room for a shower and water heater.
I have an arch type metal building, love it for price and ease of erection. Needs insulation. Would be nice to have stud type wall to hang stuff on. Make sure you have plenty of power and lights. I have double duplex outlets every 4' down both walls ( 4 different circuits) couple of more hanging from the ceiling. I also have phone and internet lines run to the shop.

astrohip · Mar 9, 2015

cmyoung2 said:
Progressive Farmer has a book on farm shops, lots of good ideas. Height is your friend, make your doors at least 9', maybe more. 9' handles most farm type trailers, most small to mid size tractors. Higher may be better. I generally like taller buildings, 12'+ inside height, or I will poke holes in the ceiling. Concrete is good, slope to a drain, but not too much slope, just enough so you can wash stuff down or out when needed. Add a bathroom. Repeat-Add a bathroom. Keeps wife happy when you can clean up before you come in the house, more convenient when you are in the middle of something, safer if you need to was down in a hurry after a spill. get a source of hot water and you are set. Doesn't have to be big, mine is 4x8 with room for a shower and water heater.
I have an arch type metal building, love it for price and ease of erection. Needs insulation. Would be nice to have stud type wall to hang stuff on. Make sure you have plenty of power and lights. I have double duplex outlets every 4' down both walls ( 4 different circuits) couple of more hanging from the ceiling. I also have phone and internet lines run to the shop.

Good info. Off to Progressive Farmer's site... and back. Wow, lots of info. One very cool tip (I'll just quote) "set out stakes and caution tape to represent the footprint of the 80- by 105-foot building he was planning to build. He tested various configurations to assure he was leaving adequate space for moving equipment into the building and around his compact farmyard." Great tip. And lots more. Thanks for the lead.

I had planned on a bathroom, wasn't sure about a shower. Will have to think about it.

bigtiller--good to know a well-insulated metal building can stay cool. I plan on insulating it.

Wagtail · Mar 9, 2015

Just had a thought... you might need to consider an area regarding extra roof-frame support if you're considering a winch/block'n'tackle for hoisting things. It's a bugger to re-engineer later.

Whirly-gig roof ventilators are a standard way of dissipating heat (and fumes) down here. I believe that you can shut/partially shut them down to retain heat in the winter

Oh and when I mentioned the orientation of my shed facing South, please remember that I'm in the southern hemisphere so the sun tracks across the North.

oldtimer 66 · Mar 9, 2015

A couple pictures of my building, 40' x 60' steel clear span Sharron Steel Bldgs. 26 gage galvalume sheeting. Built 1991, 14' side walls 3-12 pitch 4' over hang 1.5' on gable ends. One exterior man door, one 12' x 12' garage door, one 14' X 12' slider door. Center partition wall with steel interior man door, steel galvanize purlins and girts Non expandable end walls, middle columns are 6 gage with a 18" section, single sided weld, 40' X 30' heated with 4.0" reinforced concrete with wire and 1.0 insulation board and 40' X 30' not heated with gravel floor, 6" x 72" rolled insulation with reinforced poly in heated side, 2" in non heated side, 100,000 BTU Reznor, heater, original gutters gone due to ice. 200 amp dedicated service all electrics in conduit. Water is piggy backed from my home. Cost in 1991 dollars $40K. High pressure sodium lights 400 watts $800 used, interior walls are steel roof decking 22 gage approx. $900. Plus a lot of other incidentals and toys.

One of your questions concerned hanging shelves and or any thing from the interior walls of a steel build. The roof decking could not have been a better fit for my interior walls. I put down another base angle and the roof decking is screwed between the middle girt and the new bottom base angle, they are 8' and 9' high respectively. I painted it bright white when initially installed but 24 years later it is starting to show it's age. I have done a lot of arcing and sparking inside my building. I use self drilling screws to attach anything to the walls. .31 hex. The green shelving is attached to the walls with the SD screws. The bottom edge of the shelving just catches the 10 block for vertical support. I can sweep under all of the shelving. Non of the shelving is sitting on the floor. Everything else show on the walls is fully supported by the roof decking, the bottom base angle and the middle girt. I have been buying the garden hose brackets from HF cutting them in half and screwing them to the walls the with the SD screws. They make excellent hooks. I have a one block exposure, 10" block, on a separate footer, between the column piers. The concrete floor on the heated side is also pined to that block. Maybe this will give you some ideas. Later.

Industrial Toys · Mar 10, 2015

We have built a few buildings now. They are never big enough! I like my last building but if it had been two or three feet deeper, it would have served my needs better. I calculated my backhoe length, and that was what I needed but it's very handy to have another attachment sitting in front of the machine and as such, I have to swing the backhoe off to one side when parking.

I really don't care much for wood. It is such a temporary material, prone to fire and the woodpeckers take a liking to it. But it is rustic looking and we chose on a couple of buildings to go with board and baton but have the buidlings sitting on a highly reinforce eight foot wall, four feet out of the ground. This should extend the life of the board and baton by a good amount.

Polycarbonate doors. Put two in, 13 X 13 feet. Absolutely love the light they let in and wish I could have afforded them for all the doors of my newest building and my old buildings as well.

EddieWalker · Mar 10, 2015

You didn't say if you where planning on building this yourself or hiring it out. From what I understand reading your post, and the size of building you want, I'm thinking you will hire it out. You also said that you want a cement slab floor. Going with concrete, I would strongly suggest you look at a metal building. Mueller Metal Buildings is all over Texas and hopefully there is one in your area. I would go to Steel Buildings, Metal Buildings, Metal Roofing | Mueller, Inc and find the closest location to where you want to build. I would make an appointment with one of their design guys and talk to him about what you think you want, and listen to what he can offer you.

Things like roll up doors depend on how big of a tractor you want to get into the building. Wall height will go from there. I have 12 foot walls in my shop right now, but I have plans to build another shop that will only have ten foot walls. For me, that is the lowest wall height I would want for a shop just because of the door height, and also because of handling sheets of plywood.

Having a half bathroom in there is also very nice.

Lots of doors are great, but they also take away from wall space.

If you go with a metal building, then just frame out the area you want to store stuff and cover the wooden stud walls in OSB or plywood.

Be sure you have the space for the size shop you want and enough room outside the building to grade water away from the building. Water is always going to be the enemy, and getting rid of it is crucial.

Texas heat and metal are just part of life. When building, get it insulated, but unless you are going to enclose a smaller area, don't even pretend to think there is any way of cooling it or warming it. Tall ceilings and big spaces make that just about impossible. I have fans in my shop, but when it gets to a certain temperature, you just have to stop and do something else.

Venting does not cool a building. It eliminates condensation. Venting is air flow. Air flow over the underside of the metal removes the moisture that builds up from condensation. The ribs on a metal building are the way air gets into the building and allows it to exit through the peak of the building.

You are being smart to start your planning early and get as much information as you can.

Eddie

merlynr · Mar 10, 2015

.

this is one cell phone pic I snapped of my sil's barn which is 90% complete although this shows one end complete.
It's on a poured foundation and built like a house with 16" studs and 12' walls. He put on overhang which really slowed down completion and also the two tone was quite a bit harder than just one color. The size is 35x50 with a 15x35 carport with 2' shorter roofline on the other end which is not shown on the one pic I have. We've worked on it off and on weekends all winter.

NewfieDan · Mar 10, 2015

I had an issue with a shop that was built by the previous owner here. The shop was basically built by removing trees and top soil. This left the floor of the shop as a low spot. Over the years and regular flooding of the shop it caused rot on the framing. Had to call in a contractor to build a knee wall under the existing wall.

When planning the slab also consider a knee wall. A short wall under the actual structure. This will help keep out the pests and keep out any water if it is a little low. In my garage where the toys are I put in all the lugs at 4ft off the ground. This let me put in a bench any where I wanted without moving an outlet.

You mentioned heat in winter. You most likely need very little down there, but what source are you considering? Gas, electric?

For the size of the building you are planning I would put in 14ft high door. This would also make your walls a lot higher, at least 15-16ft. But IMHO you never know what the future will bring. This will also give you room for a vehicle lift for mtce, or for classic car storage.

Rustyiron · Mar 10, 2015

I'd take a step back and think about your shop (size) by use. Myself, in my "shop" I don't want a bunch of stuff in the way, it's a shop, and not for piling crap in. Enough room to have an area for an ongoing project, while allways having a nice open "bay" for the quick oil change or what ever. This area might also be where you want A/C and a decent insulation pkg. As somone mentioned a toilet & sink might be on your list. This might alter your thinking on const. methods/materials. IMHO a "stick built" bldg. insulates & finishes easier and better than a steel (framed) bldg. Now for your other needs of basically storage, esp for tractors & implements, they can be in a simple lean to with a dirt floor. Metal framed or "pole" building take your pick. The last need you mentioned was storage with pallet racks, to me that's kinda in between the other 2 as I'd want a concrete floor, but prolly no need to heat or cool it.
It's a hard decision and I've built a many shop or building for my self. I've learned that this way of thinking or designing (by use) has worked for me. I'm a big fan of lean to's for cheap out of the direct weather storage. You might even think of 2 seperate bldgs. A stand alone shop would be expandable in any direction, and another storage bldg. could be split in half with "warehouse" section and a simple dirt floor covered "machine shed" type section.

oldtimer 66 · Mar 10, 2015

Just an FYI, on a steel clear span building like mine I could have positioned the building so that I could put the main door or doors on the gabled ends with a expandable end wall or walls. With that said I could have put in say a 14' X 14' or maybe higher door with only 14' side walls. Inside I have approx. 19' to the peak. Later.

ustmd · Mar 10, 2015

EddieWalker said:
Texas heat and metal are just part of life. When building, get it insulated, but unless you are going to enclose a smaller area, don't even pretend to think there is any way of cooling it or warming it. Tall ceilings and big spaces make that just about impossible. I have fans in my shop, but when it gets to a certain temperature, you just have to stop and do something else.

Venting does not cool a building. It eliminates condensation. Venting is air flow. Air flow over the underside of the metal removes the moisture that builds up from condensation. The ribs on a metal building are the way air gets into the building and allows it to exit through the peak of the building.

Eddie

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

We are near Austin and have a 30 x 50 metal barn with a clerestory roof that peaks at ~18ft (and is vented), 10 ft roll up doors at opposite ends and is insulated. Even with both roll up doors open in the summer, it still gets HOT. The temp outside will be 100, and the barn will be almost the same temp. Insulation just slows the rate of temp change, not stop and when the night time temp is only 15 degrees cooler than the day time temp, the build with equalize to the environment very quickly.

If you want a place to work in late June/July/August, you need to build a smaller area in the shop and put in an AC unit.

astrohip · Mar 10, 2015

Wow, some really good ideas here... sorry if I don't reply to each.

oldtimer66 -- really slick the way your shelves don't sit on the ground. Cleaning under racks has always been an issue; hanging them would solve that. Also using roof decking for walls.

I-toys -- Polycarbonate doors. Never heard of them until this. Great idea.

E-Walker -- definitely a hire out job. Just went to Mueller's site; there's one in College Station, about 40 miles away. Just d/l'ed a brochure. Eye candy for barn lovers!

Newfie Dan -- heat's not much of an issue. Could run propane, I have a 1,000 gallon tank about 100 yards away. But it will probably be easier to just use electric heat, since I have to run elec service anyway. As others have said, the problem will be getting rid of heat, not creating it.

Rustyiron -- good points (on use vs design). In reading y'alls comments, I've been thinking about making a larger "under cover but not totally enclosed" area, for as you say, tractors & implements. Which is about half of what I store. Maybe a hard pack floor, with a roof and a back wall. Depends on what slabs cost these days, that may drop the price, give me a place for outdoor equip, and free up a lot of the barn. Need to do some thinking, esp about how much to spend.

Appreciate all the feedback on the heat, from you fellow Texans. Right now I have a one wall structure, so I get a good breeze (when there is one). Need to think about the heat aspect. Fans maybe, like Big *** Fans, or maybe wall fans, to try to keep air moving. That and good design, with doors that allow breezes.

More to think about...