One step closer to permanent wood heat ban in California?

[clemsonfor]

For those who haven't been keeping up, the EPA has created new rules requiring major reductions in wood stove particulate emissions. This will raise the cost of wood stoves significantly. Here in Michigan, the state is passing a law preventing the EPA rule from being enforced, because of the potential impact on low income households. I was surprised to find that 10% of the homes in the US get at least some of the heat from wood.

I just bought an Englander NC30 and it complies to the new regulations already and is WA state legal. I paid the same thing for that stove this month as some paid 3 years ago. I dont think those regulations will change the price in the short term.

 

[clemsonfor]

Jesus Christ! :thumbdown:
Its difficult to understand how gun control legislation never gets any traction in the US yet these crazy proposed controls seem to get all kinds of traction...
Whats next!
Cheers,
Jon

Guns are a constitutional right. burning wood inyour house is not defined in the bill of rights.
Thats probably the main reason???:confused3:

But i too get 99% of my heat from wood and hate to see any infringement to that!

 

[dave1949]

Outlines the dynamic at play - activists using sue+settle to ram through the legislation they want.

EPA's Wood-Burning Stove Ban Deals Blow to Rural Homes

Debatable who is using who as a stalking horse.

Valid science I will listen to. Holy wars, not so much.

Rgds, D.

That article was written by a Holy Warrior.

 

[clemsonfor]

Well, that's just lovely... I spend half my life in a motel room, and moan and groan on the shower head restrictions. But guess what?, Carry a small set of vise grips, and my own shower head, and no more problems... I suppose I must now be some sort of criminal...

thats good stuff

 

[Dr_Zinj]

I don't know how many people have breathing difficulties such as bronchitis, COPD, asthma, emphysema and so on but I imagine they all would all enjoy living in a smoke free neighborhood.

Have you considered that they may be living is TOO smoke-free of an environment? Humans have been selected for survival breathing wood smoke since our ancestors first started using fire between 0.2 and 1.7 million years ago. An analogous situation exists with overly clean houses failing to expose our children to enough allergens and infectious substances such that their immune systems fail to develop properly.

 

[3930dave]

That article was written by a Holy Warrior.

I understand your point Dave.

I usually take the time to read about an issue from more than one side. There are often valid points, on both sides of a position.

I don't see much science being presented, backing up wood bans. Meaning - health studies in large populations.

I'm definitely not an expert on the US legal system. In today's pc environment, Sue+Settle does seem to go a long way towards explaining what is going on, to a legal layman like myself.

I'm for clean burning. ur described himself as Live and Let Live. I don't think he got that quite right. I view him (and others on here) as Live, and help others LIve Better. If he had a neighbour that was smoking out the neighbourhood, I could see him politely offering help with fixing any deficiencies in the stove, and assisting his neighbour in understanding how to properly cure and store wood.

I'm for clean burning. We need more responsible and educated wood-burners around, not more govt.

Rgds, D.

 

[KennyG]

I just bought an Englander NC30 and it complies to the new regulations already and is WA state legal. I paid the same thing for that stove this month as some paid 3 years ago. I dont think those regulations will change the price in the short term.

Looks like a nice stove. I was looking at the original regs which pushed the reg down to 1.3 g/hr, which the NC30 and most other stoves of reasonable size don't meet. Thanks to Dave's links, I find that last month they moved the limit up to 2 g/hr for 2020. That points out the concern about EPA regulations. They propose a standard and cause lots of confusion and cost - then change it again arbitrarily.

An example, the current proposal for average gas mileage for cars AND light trucks is 56.2 MPG in 2025. Does anyone seriously think we're going to get there? And yet all the automakers have to work toward it or lobby against it. Good business for politicians and lobbyists I guess.

 

[RedNeckGeek]

So how much wood did you end up burning this season? I remember a thread last year about your firewood supply and storage.

It's been a very mild winter (don't think we've even seen any frost!) and so far I've only made it through a cord and a half, Dave. Usually one fire in the morning warms up the house, and if it's sunny it'll stay comfortable all day and through the evening. If it's cloudy, I'll light another smaller fire at dinner time, and there'll be enough embers the next morning to start another fire easily.

We had lots of cold and rainy weather (and even snow once!) the winter of '12-'13, but even if I used twice what I did this year, what I cut last summer will still end up lasting several more years. It's nice to be that far ahead on processing wood! Still have several huge piles of brush/downed trees to clean up, but it looks like wildfire season will be starting very early this year and I'll have no way to get rid of the slash. I already have a huge mound of it just from cleaning up the winter blow down, and it'll be a year before that stuff is ready for burning. So it looks like I'll have the rest of the year off from firewood duty.

 

[dave1949]

I understand your point Dave.

I usually take the time to read about an issue from more than one side. There are often valid points, on both sides of a position.

I don't see much science being presented, backing up wood bans. Meaning - health studies in large populations.

I'm definitely not an expert on the US legal system. In today's pc environment, Sue+Settle does seem to go a long way towards explaining what is going on, to a legal layman like myself.

I'm for clean burning. ur described himself as Live and Let Live. I don't think he got that quite right. I view him (and others on here) as Live, and help others LIve Better. If he had a neighbour that was smoking out the neighbourhood, I could see him politely offering help with fixing any deficiencies in the stove, and assisting his neighbour in understanding how to properly cure and store wood.

I'm for clean burning. We need more responsible and educated wood-burners around, not more govt.

Rgds, D.

Controlled studies of air borne particulate's impacts on a population are difficult to achieve. There have been such studies however that indicate higher mortality rates associated with particulate matter. It is a lot to wade through and above my medical paygrade but there are multiple scientific studies and results here: http://www.nuceng.ca/refer/risk/A3110011.pdf

There is medical science that tells us fine particulates have a deleterious effect on human lung function. I don't think it is a stretch to say limiting those particulates limits those unhealthy effects. The Harvard Six study covered in the above link found that follow-ups that occurred after two of the six cities in the study had reduced their particulates also showed declines in related mortality.

Women in developing countries who routinely cook over wood or dung fires are known to suffer from that exposure, which would be extreme by comparison to typical North American exposures. As such, they serve as unfortunate medical study guinea pigs.

Global Alliance for Clean Cookstoves

Daily exposure to toxic smoke from traditional cooking practices is one of the world’s biggest – but least well-known killers. Penetrating deep into the lungs of its victims, this acrid smoke causes a range of deadly chronic and acute health effects such as child pneumonia, lung cancer, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, and heart disease, as well as low birth-weights in children born to mothers whose pregnancies are spent breathing toxic fumes from traditional cookstoves. The evidence is robust and compelling: exposure to household air pollution (HAP) is responsible for a staggering number of preventable illnesses and deaths each year. Indeed, the World Health Organization (WHO) estimates that exposure to smoke from the simple act of cooking constitutes the fourth leading risk factor for disease in developing countries, and causes 4.3 million premature deaths per year – exceeding deaths attributable to malaria or tuberculosis. In addition, tens of millions more fall sick with illnesses that could readily be prevented with improved adoption of clean and efficient cookstoves and fuels.

 

[RedNeckGeek]

I'm for clean burning. ur described himself as Live and Let Live. I don't think he got that quite right. I view him (and others on here) as Live, and help others LIve Better. If he had a neighbour that was smoking out the neighbourhood, I could see him politely offering help with fixing any deficiencies in the stove, and assisting his neighbour in understanding how to properly cure and store wood.

I'm for clean burning. We need more responsible and educated wood-burners around, not more govt.

It all depends on the neighbor. Most will accept help, after all a clean burning stove uses less wood. But some people insist on being A-holes, and no amount of education or kindness will make them change. I wouldn't put up with an idiot smoking me out of my own property just like I wouldn't put up with his dog crapping in my yard. In both cases, after one or two hints, I'd be on the phone to the appropriate gummint agency to make him their problem.

That only works if there are ordinances in place that give the authorities tools for enforcement. So I don't have a problem with low emissions standards. But I also don't believe they should be retroactive, better to phase them in for new construction or retrofits, perhaps with incentives and rebates to ease the financial burden for everyone. That doesn't solve the problem of someone that refuses to operate a stove properly though, as even EPA compliant stoves can be made to smoulder and smoke. That brings us back to wise enforcement. If you burn your old timey fireplace hot it's not gonna smoke up the neighborhood even though it might not be meeting the new EPA limits. If nobody calls to complain, I don't think the gummint should interfere. But if you insist on burning this year's felled oak in your Quad 4300 step top, your neighbor shouldn't have to do more than suggest a better way and call the cops if you refuse to listen.