Is "breakout force" the amount a loader will lift?

[sixdogs]

Dumb question but I've always wondered how much my Deere 5520 with 541SL loader will lift. It's a lot because several times I've lifted more than I thought possible. In the site shown below the data is listed for the 5520 tractor with 541 loader and "breakout force" is listed at 4125 lbs. I have a self leveling loader and I think that's the "MSL" listing. Is breakout force how much it will lift?



TractorData.com John Deere 5520 tractor attachments information

 

[GPintheMitten]

No. Breakout force is the curling up of the bucket. It uses different cylanders than yhe lifting arms. Typically the breakout force is more force than the lifting arms.

 

[SPYDERLK]

Breakout force is how much the loader will lift off the ground. Lift force diminishes as height increases. Breakout is sometimes speced at the pins ... sometimes at a defined point in the bucket.

 

[k0ua]

And yet for even one more answer, Breakout force is the combination of the lift cylinders and the curl cylinders both operated at the same time at ground level to break out of the pile. Sometimes measured at the bucket lip, sometimes measured at the pins...

As 10 tractor geeks what breakout force is and you WILL get 10 different answers.

 

[the old grind]

.. Breakout force is the curling up of the bucket. It uses different cylanders than yhe lifting arms. Typically the breakout force is more force than the lifting arms.

I've always interpreted or read in FEL's OM to be just that & don't recall ever seeing a 'breakout force' rating not well above 'lift at pins' or similar to any height. When digging into a well settled pile to a near stall, the bucket will usually curl when the loader won't lift. Isn't that what breakout is?

btw, I've been grubbing brush & saplings with 800lb (lift) rated FEL. When the 'lift' runs out of muscle (and apparently better than revving any higher) a curl of the bucket will consistently 'git 'er done' , ... or lift the rear wheels.

What's interesting to note is that the 'boost' comes with cylinders retracting vs extending. :scratchchin: tog

on edit: James, ok you won that race. (I'd say BOF is measured at the lip ... and lift cylinders presumably locked when not actuated ... )

 

[SPYDERLK]

And yet for even one more answer, Breakout force is the combination of the lift cylinders and the curl cylinders both operated at the same time at ground level to break out of the pile. Sometimes measured at the bucket lip, sometimes measured at the pins...

As 10 tractor geeks what breakout force is and you WILL get 10 different answers.

How can u do a combination on a measure at the pins?

 

[SPYDERLK]

I've always interpreted or read in FEL's OM to be just that & don't recall ever seeing a 'breakout force' rating not well above 'lift at pins' or similar to any height. When digging into a well settled pile to a near stall, the bucket will usually curl when the loader won't lift. Isn't that what breakout is?

Lift from a pile at ground level moves the bucket forward as it rises. ... A pretty tuf task if youre pushing too.

 

[k0ua]

How can u do a combination on a measure at the pins?

that would be kinda hard wouldn't it?

 

[Leejohn]

Say when I'm in a pile of wet clay and the boom well not lift up, also it well not curl. Now if I let weight off of the boom and curl at the same time using the back of the bucket as a pry bar the rear well come up or it brakes loose from the pile. What would you call that.

 

[SPYDERLK]

Say when I'm in a pile of wet clay and the boom well not lift up, also it well not curl. Now if I let weight off of the boom and curl at the same time using the back of the bucket as a pry bar the rear well come up or it brakes loose from the pile. What would you call that.

It sure seems like it oughta be called breakout, but as an incident rather than a known force.

 

[the old grind]

My OM says 800lb lift 'per ASAE'-something and breakout force >2k lbs. Presumably, if the lift cylinder circuit (valve) is activated (vs locked) are limited thusly, a much higher, simultaneous 'breakout force' (curl or what, then?) could force the lift arms down, back-feeding the system harmlessly. (pressure ~balanced in all activated cyls/circuits)

btw: This may bear out better in a closed center vs open center system due to valve/flow 'priority' within the stack ...

:stirthepot:

 

[arrow]

that would be kinda hard wouldn't it?

Not if the "pins" are simply being used to describe a "point" of force alone that incorporates your rendition of break out force where the boom lift is also included, I did not take your answer to be that the measurement is shared or combined but more of an "either or thing" (lip or pins). I think your definition is what most of the manufacturers use. That is how much force can be generated when the bucket is buried into a pile to liberate it. It is a much more impressive number to add both the lift and curl capabilities of the loader happening at the same time even though neither is operating at 100% when engaging both.

 

[SPYDERLK]

..
,,,,,,,,,,,:confused2:

 

[MossRoad]

Here's some info, but its an old standard from 1996. The newest one I can find is from 2012, and is ASAE S301.5, but I can't find a free link to that and no offense to anyone here on TBN, but I don't want to spend $55.00 to find out. :confused3:

ASAE S301.3 JAN96
http://www.doa.go.th/aeri/files/pht.../grain drying/aeae-1998/pdfs/section2/225.pdf

 

[sixdogs]

From the link that I gave, does any of that info tell how much the loader will lift?

 

[MossRoad]

From the link that I gave, does any of that info tell how much the loader will lift?

It does not appear to, but may be the numbers:
Lift to full height (at pin):
2500 lbs [1134 kg] (NSL)
2800 lbs [1270 kg] (MSL)

 

[Brad_Blazer]

I seriously doubt they would change the definition of breakout force with any revision to the specification.
Breakout force is lift cylinders only. It's so much higher because of how the cylinder/boom geometry changes with height.

"5.1.5 Breakout force a腎 pivot pin (Y): Vertical lifting force, in newtons
(pounds), the loader will exert at the bucket pivot pin centerline using the
lift cylinders only, with the bucket horizontal at ground line.

5.1.6 Breakout force (Z): Vertical lifting force, in newtons (pounds), the
loader will exert located 800 mm (31.5 in.) forward of the bucket pivot pin
centerline using the lift cylinders only, with the bucket horizontal at
ground line.

5.1.7 Bucket rollback force at maximum height (VV): Vertical lifting
force, in newtons (pounds), the bucket will exert, located 800 mm (31.5
in.) forward of the bucket pivot pin centerline, using the bucket cylinders
only, with loader at maximum height and bucket horizontal.

5.1.8 Bucket rollback force at 1.5 m (59 in.) lift height (XX): Vertical
lifting force, in newtons (pounds), the bucket will exert located 800 mm
(31.5 in.) forward of the bucket pivot pin centerline using the bucket
cylinders only, with the loader positioned to locate the bucket pivot pin
centerline at 1.5 m (59 in.) above ground line and bucket horizontal.

5.1.9 Bucket rollback force at ground line (ZZ): Vertical lifting force, in
newtons (pounds), the bucket will exert located 800 mm (31.5 in.)
forward of the bucket pivot pin centerline using the bucket cylinders only,
with the loader positioned to locate the bottom of the bucket cutting edge
horizontal at ground line.

 

[Gary Fowler]

I seriously doubt they would change the definition of breakout force with any revision to the specification.
Breakout force is lift cylinders only. It's so much higher because of how the cylinder/boom geometry changes with height.

"5.1.5 Breakout force aè…Ž pivot pin (Y): Vertical lifting force, in newtons
(pounds), the loader will exert at the bucket pivot pin centerline using the
lift cylinders only, with the bucket horizontal at ground line.

5.1.6 Breakout force (Z): Vertical lifting force, in newtons (pounds), the
loader will exert located 800 mm (31.5 in.) forward of the bucket pivot pin
centerline using the lift cylinders only, with the bucket horizontal at
ground line.

5.1.7 Bucket rollback force at maximum height (VV): Vertical lifting
force, in newtons (pounds), the bucket will exert, located 800 mm (31.5
in.) forward of the bucket pivot pin centerline, using the bucket cylinders
only, with loader at maximum height and bucket horizontal.

5.1.8 Bucket rollback force at 1.5 m (59 in.) lift height (XX): Vertical
lifting force, in newtons (pounds), the bucket will exert located 800 mm
(31.5 in.) forward of the bucket pivot pin centerline using the bucket
cylinders only, with the loader positioned to locate the bucket pivot pin
centerline at 1.5 m (59 in.) above ground line and bucket horizontal.

5.1.9 Bucket rollback force at ground line (ZZ): Vertical lifting force, in
newtons (pounds), the bucket will exert located 800 mm (31.5 in.)
forward of the bucket pivot pin centerline using the bucket cylinders only,
with the loader positioned to locate the bottom of the bucket cutting edge
horizontal at ground line.

In other words, any of the above. I would suspect that a manufacturer is going to go with the highest number that they get from any one of these descriptions. Mostly it is a numbers game that mfg. play with the consumer and there is no way to tell which of the numbers they are using. None of my tractors will perform like my old grey market Yanmar with the Vietnam built FEL. It would lift the rear of the tractor with the FEL when it(the bucket) was hung under a stump, rock etc.

 

[SPYDERLK]

From the link that I gave, does any of that info tell how much the loader will lift?

Yes ~3485 at the pins. The bucket probably weighs ~ 400 and sits further forward, as will the load you put in it. Guessing then ... it should lift a bucket payload of ~2500 off the ground and maybe 1800 to full height.
,,,larry

 

[the old grind]

Kinda hard to understand why my FEL won't lift 2 55 gal poly drums of water with 2k+ lbs of 'BOF' (measured 'wherever') and using lift cyls only, not budge 'em the least. (can raise 1 full and one ~1/2 full to several feet)

Perhaps rather than properly define BOF we (and some OMs?) are misapplying the term to describe 'rollback force' . Kleenex, Ping Pong, Bush Hog, Ditch Witch are brand names broadly applied and commonly accepted as 'descriptive' vs bathroom tissue, table tennis, brush cutter or trencher. :scratchchin: ASAE's terms may be set in stone, but dictionaries are 'updated' as usages of terms evolve with popular culture.

Going 'by the book' depends on which book (vs popular terminology), and perhaps the numbers just aren't being parsed the same by all. I won't likely ever claim to fully understand BOF, esp if I'm not sure now to apply it. :confused3: ... :laughing: