Electricians: can neutral be anything but white?

[LD1]

Going to be wiring my shop soon and am planning things out. We have no code or inspections to follow here but want to do it right.

Everything is going to be in conduit. But I want to minimize how much of it I use. So my first question

As I understand it, I can run 9 current carrying conductors in 1/2" emt correct? The layout I am planning, I need 4 circuits on my largest run of emt. That's 9 wires if I run 4 hot, 4 neutral, and a ground. But pulling 9 wires in 1/2 don't sound like fun.

I was considering a mwbc and only using 2 neutrals. My understanding is I can run 2/hots with 1/neutral as long as they are on different phases. But was wanting a way to distinguish between neutrals later down the road if I decide to splice in somewhere where a wire end is not visible. I want to make sure to keep the hots and neutrals balanced.

Like running a pair of black hots with a white neutral and a pair of reds with ?? Blue? Grey? Some other accepted color. So in the future if I decide to open up a tee or j-box I know I am grabbing the right pair as to not overload the neutral. Not to mention it will make it easier initially.

 

[PHPaul]

Just mark your neutral with white tape at both terminations.

 

[Mysfyt]

Sharing a neutral might be fine but the idea makes me nervous. I'd want a neutral with every hot but I'm sure a real electrician will come along shortly and set the record straight.

 

[super55]

It's been years since I did electrical but typically we'd run 2 hots with every neutral. Generally white or grey is used for neutral in commercial applications. If you are running EMT throughout the whole thing a ground wire does not need to be run because the tubing being metal is your ground conductor all the way back to your panel. flex conduit needs to be grounded if I remember correctly but you can just terminate it at the box with a ground screw as long as it has solid conduit all the way back to the panel.

We would never run two of the same color through a run. Generally our circuits would go a blk/red/wht and then another circuit would be brwn/pink/gry.

 

[boggen]

sounds like a problems to me. from GFCI tripping, to causing some extra bad electricity, from running drills to other things, and causing electronics in laptops to printers to wireless routers to fail more quickly. to just plain issue of next time you want to re-arrange some stuff just a little bit, a bigger redo of things.

i might understand, you have say a bunch of lights, and you want each light to be switchable individually. and all lights are coming off same breaker. and running individual "hots" to each light. with perhaps a 3way or 4way wires in the conduit. ya ok.

but sounds like you are wanting to mix multi hots / neutrals / grounds from multi breakers in same conduit. and trying to reduce total amount of wires as much as possible. i would be simply skiddish about coming back a year from now. and not remembering squat, and trying to find some sort of electrical print out of what was what. without burning things down and/or killing myself.

you can get some better "numbering" tapes. 0-9, and lets ya wrap "numbering tape" around wires to label them. then standard white,black,red. some times you can get lettering tape to help id stuff. not a large fan of the tape and/or coloring of wires. things can get messy and frustrating rather quick when trouble shooting comes into play.

 

[LD1]

Just mark your neutral with white tape at both terminations.

The issue becomes that it they are only marked at the terminations. What if I want to tie into a circuit and cannot see a termination directly.

sounds like a problems to me. from GFCI tripping, to causing some extra bad electricity, from running drills to other things, and causing electronics in laptops to printers to wireless routers to fail more quickly. to just plain issue of next time you want to re-arrange some stuff just a little bit, a bigger redo of things.

i might understand, you have say a bunch of lights, and you want each light to be switchable individually. and all lights are coming off same breaker. and running individual "hots" to each light. with perhaps a 3way or 4way wires in the conduit. ya ok.

but sounds like you are wanting to mix multi hots / neutrals / grounds from multi breakers in same conduit. and trying to reduce total amount of wires as much as possible. i would be simply skiddish about coming back a year from now. and not remembering squat, and trying to find some sort of electrical print out of what was what. without burning things down and/or killing myself.

you can get some better "numbering" tapes. 0-9, and lets ya wrap "numbering tape" around wires to label them. then standard white,black,red. some times you can get lettering tape to help id stuff. not a large fan of the tape and/or coloring of wires. things can get messy and frustrating rather quick when trouble shooting comes into play.

No laptops or other sensitive equipment going to be ran. This is for my shop. So just garage stuff. Power tools, drill press, grinder, etc.

Can you elaborate on how it may cause bad electricity?

One thing I hadnt considered is how it would effect a GFCI. Can you run a shared neutral for 2 hots on different phases and still run a GFCI? I was planning on having the first outlet in each circuit being a GFCI. At this point, I think that may be the deal breaker??? My understanding of a GFCI is it senses the current its pulling from the hot let, and if it dont match the current returning through the neutral it trips. IT wants to see no difference. So if phase 1 has something plugged in drawing current as does circuit 2, do the GFI's only sense the current that is on the same phase as their hot leg?

 

[EddieWalker]

Are you just trying to save money by running fewer wires or is there some reason you want to limit yourself to using the smallest sized conduit you can? What guage wire are you going to use? Since this is a shop, are you planning on using power tools? Are they all going to be 20 amp lines with 12 gauge wire?

Is there a cost savings in only buying one color wire?

If you ran 12/3 romex, you wold have two hots for one neutral and a ground. I wouldn't change that ratio anymore then that. In my shop, I ran 12/2 for each circuit with my lights on a separate line.

Eddie

 

[GregbkH]

First, I am a certified (master) electrician in Wisconsin. Here is an NEC pipe fill chart.

Conduit Fill Chart

The ground is not counted as it is not a current carrying conductor. You also have to consider the derating factor.

Electrician Testing- A guide for all Electricians: Wire Ampacity and Conduit Fill Calculation

This table shows that for (your case) you would have to derate 8 conductors in a raceway to 70 %.

If you did share the neutral with 2 hots you would have to have the hots on a 2 pole breaker. You have to be able to open the hots with a single switch handle (breaker).

Personally, I would use 3/4" or 1" conduit for the main runs. It leaves room for future expansion.

 

[GregbkH]

Oh I forgot to mention that the neutral can be white or gray. They do make neutral wire that is traced. We use it a lot at work. EG. white with a black trace. You can get red and blue trace as well. the colors commonly associated with 120/240 volts are black, red and blue for the hots.

 

[boggen]

not an electrician. just what i have had to deal with here on the farm.

bad electricity. = plugging in a vacuum cleaner on same circuit as a very old tube stype TV. and having image get all blurry. the reception did not get bad. it was (arghs don't remember correct words) the "back EMF" or changing the wave form of the electricity looking via oscilloscope.

trying to run a internet connection via wires in your house. is also acceptable to other things running.

while above are 2 examples. most electronics do not had bad electricity very well.

bad electricity comes from just a simple motor running (drills, air compressor, saws, etc...) if you can place say a computer or other electronics on a different circuit / breaker. then it is more likely any bad electricity. gets diminished as it works it way back to the breaker box (within reason)

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GFCI i am going to say "depends" and check HOT and neutral, and possibly ground as well.

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12-3 wire = i only use when dealing with say 3-way switches and/or 4-way switches. ((more than one light switch can turn off the same light/s)) and making sure i get power, between switches, and were power is tied into the circuit.

i might run a 12-2 from breaker panel to a switch, and then a 12-3 to an outlet, were one outlet is always on, and the other outlet is switchable. ((table lamp in a house for example))

i AVOID running 12-3 and hooking it up to 2 different breakers. maybe that is reason why i am a farm boy, vs an electrician and not knowing i can do more. or if it is just purely Saftey issue. and KISS (keeping it simply stupid) expection running 12-3 on a 30amp or higher breaker that requires 2 phase. were black, red = hots coming from breaker, white - neutral, ground is ground.