CK35 HST shattered piston at 400 hours

[Fawken]

Many thanks for your input. Yes, there should have been three springs... but only two were in the pan. It sure seems like the third one never was there to begin with. Its absence would most definitely have caused this problem, wouldn't it?

I'm afraid that getting a new motor from Kioti -- or for that matter getting Kioti involved in this at all -- would require my dealer going to bat for me. Unfortunately I don't have that option. My dealer left me hanging with this, as described in my first post. I'm pretty much a Kioti orphan now as a result.

You being from Texas I just assumed you were a mechanic or at least work on motorcycles and such. I apologize. Before I go any further here YOU need to go on OFFENSE! A piece of that oil ring was LEFT OUT during assembly and it CAN be proven. Do you realize what a serious breach of QA/QC that is? YOU need to start screaming loud and hard and make it clear that you will post on EVERY tractor and machinery forum from California to Istanbul. YOU WILL report this to every media source who will listen. AND you WILL NOT hesitate to sue if you do not receive fair recompense. As a fellow Texan I cannot believe YOU are even entertaining the idea of paying for this on a barely used tractor! The fact your dealer treats you (the customer) like dirt is irrelevant. IN fact, document all the delays and stonewalling from them. That will play to your advantage. Get NASTY, man! You paid good money for what should be a 20 year machine. Make it clear that you're prepared to publicize this to such an extent that Kioti won't sell another machine in Texas.

BTW, a three piece ring has the middle, wavy looking ring, and two thin, flat rings that sandwich it. They are supposed to be easier to install than the old style one-piece oil rings that were very brittle. The thing is the only company I know of that makes them and makes the matching pistons is based in China.

 

[Coyote machine]

Alright guys, threats and brandishing muscle isn't doing the OP's situation any good. CHILL out!
Regardless of Texas and whatever, here's what I would do. Call your selling dealer, make an appointment to go see the principal/dealer owner. Tell him while making the appointment that you have a serious problem with your motor and you want his UNdivided attention to this matter. Don't take no for an answer or we're too busy. This matter demands immediate and through attention on their and your part.

Go see them. Find out what they suggest doing to fix for you, or fix for resale, or buy back from you at salvage rate or whatever they/you can think of to put it right. Take what remains of any oil in the pan, and send it out for oil analysis.
Once the dealer and you have settled on a plan or potential plan tell us here about the options, including a short block, rebuild yours, or complete used or new engine swap.

Once you bring us the options we will help advise as to best outcome for YOU.

Contact Kioti AFTER speaking to your dealer, as needed, but give them the opportunity to go to bat for you. They have done all your service to date, so that is a good documented thing in your favor. Give them one last chance to step and let them know in no uncertain terms you expect them to do so- regardless of how busy they might be- you're their customer too.
Yelling/screaming, threatening, or tossing around lawsuit threats, is unproductive and will not get you anywhere. Be calm, assertive, and polite, and see where you get.

Your engine was a ticking time bomb, it just happened to explode in your neighbor's face instead of your's. Next time, I wouldn't lend out my tractor, regardless of to whom the recipient might be unless I was in the driver's seat, FWIW.

 

[Fawken]

Not meaning to piss anyone off, but I'm getting tired of poor service and shoddy products and if consumers do not stand together on this issue it will get worse. Wonder how many other Kiotis have a missing ring? You won't likely know for 400-600 hours of operation perhaps more. Dealers have got to be making a fortune because today I heard they might be offering 8 year financing. EIGHT (8) YEARS!!! Can you imagine paying on a tractor for 8 years? I say the OP received a defective product and it is in all of our best interest to see that justice is done.

 

[Teachu2]

Not meaning to piss anyone off, but I'm getting tired of poor service and shoddy products and if consumers do not stand together on this issue it will get worse. Wonder how many other Kiotis have a missing ring? You won't likely know for 400-600 hours of operation perhaps more. Dealers have got to be making a fortune because today I heard they might be offering 8 year financing. EIGHT (8) YEARS!!! Can you imagine paying on a tractor for 8 years? I say the OP received a defective product and it is in all of our best interest to see that justice is done.

I spent a dozen years in retail environments, managing sales and service departments. My advice:
1) Speak to the decision maker. EVERY company has someone who has the authority to fix your problem - your job is to climb the ladder until you gat to that person. Remember, EVERYONE can say NO, you need to get to the person who can say YES.
2) Know what you want. In this case, you should want Kioti USA to step up and replace or rebuild the engine. That's the minimum. I'd also REQUEST that they provide use of a loaner of some sort if this will be a protracted repair.
3) DO NOT make threats. State your position - "This failure was in no way my fault, it appears to be a concealed defect, and I am asking for Kioti to fix it in good faith. Are YOU the person with the power to make that happen, or do I need to contact someone above you? Can you help me reach the person who can fix this?" Assume that anyone that tells you NO is doing so because they are not authorized to tell you YES.
4) Don't ask for a new tractor - and don't settle for a used replacement engine. Neither is fair to both parties. Fair is fixing yours correctly. (Of course, if they offer a new tractor, accept with profuse gratitude!)
5) Be calm, positive, and firm. Involve your dealer first, enlisting his help in reaching the Kioti rep. The dealer cannot fix your problem, but they can get you heard by Kioti, who can and most probably will fix the problem. You are, after all, giving them the opportunity to protect their brand's reputation - and they value that.

 

[Fawken]

I spent a dozen years in retail environments, managing sales and service departments. My advice:
1) Speak to the decision maker. EVERY company has someone who has the authority to fix your problem - your job is to climb the ladder until you gat to that person. Remember, EVERYONE can say NO, you need to get to the person who can say YES.
2) Know what you want. In this case, you should want Kioti USA to step up and replace or rebuild the engine. That's the minimum. I'd also REQUEST that they provide use of a loaner of some sort if this will be a protracted repair.
3) DO NOT make threats. State your position - "This failure was in no way my fault, it appears to be a concealed defect, and I am asking for Kioti to fix it in good faith. Are YOU the person with the power to make that happen, or do I need to contact someone above you? Can you help me reach the person who can fix this?" Assume that anyone that tells you NO is doing so because they are not authorized to tell you YES.
4) Don't ask for a new tractor - and don't settle for a used replacement engine. Neither is fair to both parties. Fair is fixing yours correctly. (Of course, if they offer a new tractor, accept with profuse gratitude!)
5) Be calm, positive, and firm. Involve your dealer first, enlisting his help in reaching the Kioti rep. The dealer cannot fix your problem, but they can get you heard by Kioti, who can and most probably will fix the problem. You are, after all, giving them the opportunity to protect their brand's reputation - and they value that.

Good advice. I can tell you have had experience in matters like these. I was perhaps harsh in my response to this and was not meaning to immediately threaten lawsuits and such. Yes, do everything Teachu2 has described first. I sure hope he gets a positive resolution. If it were me I'd be having an aneurysm. I'd also like to see close up pictures of the other pistons when the tractor is disassembled. If my hunch is correct and they're made in China that is probably something Kioti would not want widely publicized I would think.

 

[k0ua]

I spent a dozen years in retail environments, managing sales and service departments. My advice:
1) Speak to the decision maker. EVERY company has someone who has the authority to fix your problem - your job is to climb the ladder until you gat to that person. Remember, EVERYONE can say NO, you need to get to the person who can say YES.
2) Know what you want. In this case, you should want Kioti USA to step up and replace or rebuild the engine. That's the minimum. I'd also REQUEST that they provide use of a loaner of some sort if this will be a protracted repair.
3) DO NOT make threats. State your position - "This failure was in no way my fault, it appears to be a concealed defect, and I am asking for Kioti to fix it in good faith. Are YOU the person with the power to make that happen, or do I need to contact someone above you? Can you help me reach the person who can fix this?" Assume that anyone that tells you NO is doing so because they are not authorized to tell you YES.
4) Don't ask for a new tractor - and don't settle for a used replacement engine. Neither is fair to both parties. Fair is fixing yours correctly. (Of course, if they offer a new tractor, accept with profuse gratitude!)
5) Be calm, positive, and firm. Involve your dealer first, enlisting his help in reaching the Kioti rep. The dealer cannot fix your problem, but they can get you heard by Kioti, who can and most probably will fix the problem. You are, after all, giving them the opportunity to protect their brand's reputation - and they value that.

This sure sound like good advice to me.

 

[chuck172]

It's a shame, Chris's tractor was only one year out of the 4 year warranty, and Kioti doesn't even offer an extended warranty.

 

[Coyote machine]

It's a shame, Chris's tractor was only one year out of the 4 year warranty, and Kioti doesn't even offer an extended warranty.

Yes on the , 'it's a shame'; who knows on the no extended warranty. Kioti has offered one of the longest stock warranties in the tractor business, 4 years. Chris's engine is an anomaly to the CK line. Sometimes bad outcomes occur and we're all trying to help him get through it.

 

[chuck172]

I contacted Melissa at Kioti customer relations. Asked her about getting an extended warranty. Her reply: Good morning, Chuck Thank you for contacting KIOTI. Unfortunately, we do not offer nor do we honor any extended warranties on our equipment.
So nothing was available to Chris.

 

[Coyote machine]

Even if an extended warranty were available, which isn't the case, one can't buy an extended warranty AFTER catastrophic engine damage has occurred.

 

[CenTex Chris]

I would like to thank each one of you for contributing to this discussion. The input you've all offered here has definitely changed my attitude. At first I was ready to give up and cut my losses on this tractor. After getting nowhere initially with my dealer, I thought I'd have to sell it at a tremendous loss *if* I could find a buyer that needed a KL130 loader and a broken tractor to go with it. The situation has changed now, thanks to you folks.

One of the suggestions above was to first contact my dealer and then contact Kioti directly. Well, I had already tried the dealer which resulted in the tractor going to the back of their lot and being forgotten about for nearly three weeks. So yesterday, I called the main Kioti contact number. I described the problem with the tractor and the dealer situation (or lack of it) to the customer service representative, and sent some high-resolution photos to her via email. I'm now waiting for an official response, but she told me there is a possibility that Kioti might choose to handle this as an out-of-warranty repair, which means they will provide the parts and I pay for the labor. The catch is, the repair work would have to be done through the selling dealer.

After I got off the phone, I drove up to see the dealer again. Before, I was The Invisible Man. And I was pretty sure we'd never see each other again. But Kioti said I needed to re-build that bridge, so I took a chance and happened to catch the owner right before closing time. I told him I'd called Kioti customer service and showed him some 8x10 prints of the oil pan and piston photos. I also brought along a can with all the little piston pieces, and shared what Kioti had told me about the possibility of an out-of-warranty repair which would have to be through their shop. Suddenly I wasn't invisible anymore. His service manager joined us and took photos of my prints to email to his Kioti rep. They told me they had never seen a lower piston failure like that before and that in their opinion it's most likely not a case of operator abuse. They said the piston will tell the full story of what happened to it, and they were ready to clear a bay and pull it. I said many thanks and I hope we can do that. It depends entirely on Kioti.

I know its out of warranty, but their engines certainly should last more than 400 hrs. If for nothing else, I would think they would want to analyze just what went wrong so soon

If Kioti wants to examine what's left of that piston and all of the pieces that came out of the oil pan, then I'm more than happy to oblige, but it's strictly a matter of how much it will cost me to provide that for them. Right now it looks like I'll have to cover the labor involved, and I don't yet have a figure for that estimate. I'm already out $500 on this thing. It cost me $250 for the second mechanic (see original post) to go over the engine top to bottom to find the source of the knock, which initially sounded like a top-end clatter. I know that's how you do it -- top to bottom. He checked lifters, injectors, etc. and the oil pan was one of the last things on that list. The other $250 was what I had to pay a fellow in my neighborhood to come over and shred my place, which badly needed it and couldn't wait because we had company coming over for the weekend. That $500 is on me, no argument there. How much more am I going to pay is the question. I'll have to balance the dealer's labor estimate against my Plan B.

Plan B involves a third diesel mechanic, a local fellow whom I've done business with for many years (he just bought a Mahindra... hmm). If I can get my hands on a new piston and a ring set, he says he can put 'em in. If Kioti chooses to pass, then I'll go this route. And then most likely sell the CK35 or trade it in. Either way, I'm better off now than I was when I started this thread, thanks to you guys. Much appreciated.

 

[Fawken]

I would like to thank each one of you for contributing to this discussion. The input you've all offered here has definitely changed my attitude. At first I was ready to give up and cut my losses on this tractor. After getting nowhere initially with my dealer, I thought I'd have to sell it at a tremendous loss *if* I could find a buyer that needed a KL130 loader and a broken tractor to go with it. The situation has changed now, thanks to you folks.

One of the suggestions above was to first contact my dealer and then contact Kioti directly. Well, I had already tried the dealer which resulted in the tractor going to the back of their lot and being forgotten about for nearly three weeks. So yesterday, I called the main Kioti contact number. I described the problem with the tractor and the dealer situation (or lack of it) to the customer service representative, and sent some high-resolution photos to her via email. I'm now waiting for an official response, but she told me there is a possibility that Kioti might choose to handle this as an out-of-warranty repair, which means they will provide the parts and I pay for the labor. The catch is, the repair work will have to be done through the selling dealer.

After I got off the phone, I drove up to see the dealer again. Before, I was The Invisible Man. And I was pretty sure we'd never see each other again. But Kioti said I needed to re-build that bridge, so I took a chance and happened to catch the owner right before closing time. I told him I'd called Kioti customer service and showed him some 8x10 prints of the oil pan and piston photos. I also brought along a can of all the piston pieces from the oil pan, and shared what Kioti had told me about the possibility of an out-of-warranty repair. Suddenly I wasn't invisible anymore. His service manager joined us and took photos of my prints to email to his Kioti rep. They told me they had never seen a lower piston failure like that before and that in their opinion it's most likely not a case of operator abuse. They said the piston will tell the full story of what happened to it, and they were ready to clear a bay and pull it. I said many thanks and I hope we can do that. It depends entirely on Kioti.



If Kioti wants to examine what's left of that piston and all of the pieces that came out of the oil pan, then I'm more than happy to oblige, but it's strictly a matter of how much it will cost me to provide that for them. Right now it looks like I'll have to cover the labor involved, and I don't yet have a figure for that estimate. I'm already out $500 on this thing. It cost me $250 for the second mechanic (see original post) to go over the engine top to bottom to find the source of the knock, which initially sounded like a top-end clatter. I know that's how you do it -- top to bottom. He checked lifters, injectors, etc. and the oil pan was one of the last things on that list. The other $250 was what I had to pay a fellow in my neighborhood to come over and shred my place, which badly needed it and couldn't wait because we had company coming over for the weekend. That $500 is on me, no argument there. How much more am I going to pay is the question. I'll have to balance the dealer's labor estimate against my Plan B.

Plan B involves a third diesel mechanic, a local fellow whom I've done business with for many years (he just bought a Mahindra... hmm). If I can get my hands on a new piston and a ring set, he says he can put 'em in. If Kioti chooses to pass, then I'll go this route. And then most likely sell the CK35 or trade it in. Either way, I'm better off now than I was when I started this thread, thanks to you guys. Much appreciated.

Glad to hear you are getting some results. Now before you do anything else go onto the web and study pictures and diagrams of 3-piece oil rings and how they work. That piston definitely broke exactly at the oil ring groove (look at the horizontal oil holes in your picture). That means the bottom of the sandwich (it's very thin but same diameter as the piston) was the one left out and it should NOT magically re-appear and did NOT somehow get sucked up into the top end. Sounds like Kioti called the dealer before you got there. I still wouldn't trust them. And I would go farther up the chain to get them to fix it at no cost to you.

 

[sd455dan]

Wow! That's terrible. I'm sorry for your pain and I would be tempted to blame it on misuse by the neighbor, but in all honesty that engine looks clean, i.e. no discoloration, no baked on oil and there are some metal objects in that crankcase that are not part of a piston. Definitely a mfg defect. Personally, I'd get more photos and get written opinions from certified mechanics and threaten a lawsuit.

What parts that are not part of a piston? -the wound wire appears to be an oil ring ex pander .. Which would have been (freed) when the piston skirt disintegrated.
I would get the head off of it.
Remove the rod -broken piston and inspect the bore for damage .
If it can be honed,- and a new piston and ring set installed in that bore then the repair shouldn't be to expensive.?.

 

[deezler]

BTW, a three piece ring has the middle, wavy looking ring, and two thin, flat rings that sandwich it. They are supposed to be easier to install than the old style one-piece oil rings that were very brittle. The thing is the only company I know of that makes them and makes the matching pistons is based in China.

Slow down a bit, bud. Sounds like you are experienced but not necessarily in the industry currently.
The coil we are looking at in the pictures is from a TWO-Piece oil ring, not a three piece. Almost ALL new diesel engines use two-piece oil rings. It is comprised of an expander coil inside of a single-piece body. They are a bit more durable and effective at controlling oil consumption in diesel engines vs the three-piece oil ring that is standard on most gasoline engines.

However, I see two expander coils in the oil pan. Did more than one cylinder suffer a broken piston? It's also possible that the coil got cut into two pieces during failure, but it's pretty hard to get a sense of scale and detail from the pics.

The piston is failed directly in the oil ring groove. This is a pretty odd place for a piston to fail. Those radial drillings in the piston allow oil to drain out of the oil ring groove and into the undercrown of the piston.

If more than one piston is failed, we have to suspect operator error. It is incredibly unlikely that two pistons would fail the same way at the same time. Are there hills in your country? Dramatically overspeeding the engine can fail pistons, for sure. A tractor rolling at high speed and jammed back into low range could easily rev way higher than desired.

However, we also don't see the oil ring body in the oil pan. It is almost impossible for a human to assemble a piston/ring assembly into an engine with the oil ring expander coil, but not body. More likely is that the oil ring body is still held up by the piston.

So Cen Tex Chris, sorry about this, really blows. But please confirm the following:
1) Did more than one cylinder/piston fail?
2) Did you neighbor notice the tractor rev too high at any point during operation?
3) Is there any history of funky engine operation or high oil consumption before this event?

Sorry but I am leaning towards operator error at this point. Just too incomprehensible that the oil ring expanders could be installed in the engine but not the body that contains it/them. Also, this really wouldn't damage the piston in any way, certainly not in a way that would blow it apart like this. And an engine without proper oil rings would burn a lot of oil and show you that something is wrong, right from hour 1.

(by the way, I'm a mechanical engineer for a piston manufacturer and I test engines/pistons every day. Diagnosing failures is one of the more interesting parts of my job. So thanks for sharing your experience and sorry again about all this. But I do like your mechanic with the cold beers on hand!)

 

[Fawken]

What parts that are not part of a piston? -the wound wire appears to be an oil ring ex pander .. Which would have been (freed) when the piston skirt disintegrated.
I would get the head off of it.
Remove the rod -broken piston and inspect the bore for damage .
If it can be honed,- and a new piston and ring set installed in that bore then the repair shouldn't be to expensive.?.

Please read the entire thread. I see this so much here. That's all I am going to say. Thanks in advance.

 

[dusty3030]

I agree your negotiating with the selling dealer doesn't have to be over if they come back wanting you to pay the labor.

A good option for you might be to get a buy back (erring to your favor on value) of the tractor and let the dealer recoup his labor when he resells it used. They stand to make more off a used sale on a lower hour tractor like that than they do selling one used.

You flip your cash into a new one somewhere else.

You could also try to work a trade in the same as above but then you are stuck with this dealer again; however, you stand to be able to get a new tractor just like you want it (because we all want something more don't we? Cab, more HP, backhoe etc etc.)

Good luck!

 

[deezler]

Oh and by the way, DO NOT RUN YOUR ENGINE ANY MORE! It is possibly still in halfway decent shape. Might even get away with a light hone and new pistons/rings. It should have been pretty **** obvious when that piston came apart that the engine shouldn't be run any more, sorry you weren't the one on it (then again, it might be all due to how your neighbor was driving it).

 

[deezler]

Please read the entire thread. I see this so much here. That's all I am going to say. Thanks in advance.

I read the whole thread and I don't quite know where you are coming from. The parts in the oil pan are broken piston skirts and the expander from the two-piece oil ring. The broken bits were all likely big enough that they couldn't do much more than fall to the bottom of the oil pan and then the screen on the oil pump pickup and oil filter would capture any debris before it damages the rest of the engine.

Until we see more pics or more fully know the extent of the damage, there's no reason to write it off as dead yet.

 

[Fawken]

Slow down a bit, bud. Sounds like you are experienced but not necessarily in the industry currently.
The coil we are looking at in the pictures is from a TWO-Piece oil ring, not a three piece. Almost ALL new diesel engines use two-piece oil rings. It is comprised of an expander coil inside of a single-piece body. They are a bit more durable and effective at controlling oil consumption in diesel engines vs the three-piece oil ring that is standard on most gasoline engines.

However, I see two expander coils in the oil pan. Did more than one cylinder suffer a broken piston? It's also possible that the coil got cut into two pieces during failure, but it's pretty hard to get a sense of scale and detail from the pics.

The piston is failed directly in the oil ring groove. This is a pretty odd place for a piston to fail. Those radial drillings in the piston allow oil to drain out of the oil ring groove and into the undercrown of the piston.

If more than one piston is failed, we have to suspect operator error. It is incredibly unlikely that two pistons would fail the same way at the same time. Are there hills in your country? Dramatically overspeeding the engine can fail pistons, for sure. A tractor rolling at high speed and jammed back into low range could easily rev way higher than desired.

However, we also don't see the oil ring body in the oil pan. It is almost impossible for a human to assemble a piston/ring assembly into an engine with the oil ring expander coil, but not body. More likely is that the oil ring body is still held up by the piston.

So Cen Tex Chris, sorry about this, really blows. But please confirm the following:
1) Did more than one cylinder/piston fail?
2) Did you neighbor notice the tractor rev too high at any point during operation?
3) Is there any history of funky engine operation or high oil consumption before this event?

Sorry but I am leaning towards operator error at this point. Just too incomprehensible that the oil ring expanders could be installed in the engine but not the body that contains it/them. Also, this really wouldn't damage the piston in any way, certainly not in a way that would blow it apart like this. And an engine without proper oil rings would burn a lot of oil and show you that something is wrong, right from hour 1.

(by the way, I'm a mechanical engineer for a piston manufacturer and I test engines/pistons every day. Diagnosing failures is one of the more interesting parts of my job. So thanks for sharing your experience and sorry again about all this. But I do like your mechanic with the cold beers on hand!)

I have put 3 piece rings in tons of bikes. There is no way that serrated expander ring is supposed to ride against the aluminum along the bottom of the groove. No way. That's just common sense, i.e. no mechanical engineering degree required.

 

[deezler]

I have put 3 piece rings in tons of bikes. There is no way that serrated expander ring is supposed to ride against the aluminum along the bottom of the groove. No way. That's just common sense, i.e. no mechanical engineering degree required.

Of course it's not supposed to. But there's no load on it, worst it's going to do is wear. There's not force to blow the piston apart. Again, it's not a 3-piece ring, either..... do you know what a two-piece oil ring is? Nevermind, I'm not going to debate you any longer about engine failure modes.