buickanddeere
Super Member
I still don't know why some people take such pride in being a rebel and purposely doing something wrong even after being told by experts not to ???
Generator question (household wiring to be more accurate)
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I still don't know why some people take such pride in being a rebel and purposely doing something wrong even after being told by experts not to ???
MossRoad
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Did you ever think that pretty much everyone here that says that does it just to get a rise out of you?
It doesn't help that you call legal, simple, safe work a jacklegged cob job, either.
Everyone doesn't have a thousand bucks to have an electrician install an auto transfer switch for their $4000.00 stand-by generator. Most folks, MOST FOLKS, have a small, under 5K generator to provide lights and water for a working toilet, and maybe save the food in their freezer IF the power goes out. And that's all they want. And that's all they need. A simple lock-out disconnect that prevents backfeeding the power lines, or extension cords and twist lock plugs on the furnace or well are safe, legal, and frugal.
Calling them stupid or hacks or cheap several times per week in this forum does ZERO to convince anyone that you may have a valid point.
buckeyefarmer
Epic Contributor
Can you give code section for prohibiting backfeed?
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buckeyefarmer
Epic Contributor
Internet experts, or inspector? Are you referring to the Op's case or Aaron's?
BHD
Veteran Member
for a 20kw generator one most likely could get by with a #4 copper or a #2 aluminum wire, longer distances up a size, for the line from the generator to the transfer switch, they only can produce about 80 amps per leg,
and I would guess most of the time one would only be running 30 or less amps per leg,
mount the transfer switch on the meter pole or near, and the large wire from the meter to the transfer switch would be very short,
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and the smaller the generator the smaller the wire need, on a 10 kw generator if the wire length was short a #10 would carry the 25-30 amps the generator can produce,
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the wire chart in the quote IMO is wrong when it comes to 12 volt capacity, I am not saying that auto 12 volt wiring is under sized in most instances as it carries in such short bursts of power, thus able to mataine the load for the duration, but for continuous loads the chart IMO is not accurate, for example you feed a 100 amps in a #10 wire for any length of time your insulation is going to melt, try it some time if you do not believe me, amps is amps, the voltage of the line has little to do with how many amps the wire can carry, (the amount of power it can carry is a combination of volts and amps), the higher the voltage the more power is carried for a given amp load, that is why transmission lines have high voltage, they can move a lot of power on a fairly small wire, and then a transformer drops the voltage down, and the total amount of power would now need a very large wire to carry the same power,
the KW rating is the sum of that power, where voltage and amps is the mix that makes up the KW rating, (kW Times 1000) divided by Volts =amps
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BHD
Veteran Member
IN the 2005 NEC 700.6 .A in article 702 on optional stand by systems, in the 2005 it Is 702.6 apparently in 2011 it is 702.5 the simple Is "transfer equipment shall be required for all stand by systems."
an illustrated page on the 2011 code on generators and back up systems. http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...ms.pdf&usg=AFQjCNFfRNxE-kvNQssECVnvrZzf4OLq4g tried up load the PDF but did not seem to be successful.
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aczlan
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Ummm 700.6 is not applicable for 99.99999% of homeowners.
It is about power for life safety items (ie: egress lighting, power for a heart/lung machine, power in an operating room, etc) and it does not permit the transfer switch that feeds emergency loads to power any other loads.
The section you want is 702, that covers "Optional Standby Systems" which home generators would generally be classed as.
Aaron Z
buickanddeere
Super Member
Did you ever think that pretty much everyone here that says that does it just to get a rise out of you?
It doesn't help that you call legal, simple, safe work a jacklegged cob job, either.
Everyone doesn't have a thousand bucks to have an electrician install an auto transfer switch for their $4000.00 stand-by generator. Most folks, MOST FOLKS, have a small, under 5K generator to provide lights and water for a working toilet, and maybe save the food in their freezer IF the power goes out. And that's all they want. And that's all they need. A simple lock-out disconnect that prevents back feeding the power lines, or extension cords and twist lock plugs on the furnace or well are safe, legal, and frugal.
Calling them stupid or hacks or cheap several times per week in this forum does ZERO to convince anyone that you may have a valid point.
The sheer number of refusals to even attempt a safe generator connection does make a person wonder.
There is nothing wrong either with a Honda clone genset downwind of the house connected via a transfer switch at the meter base. Or a proper sliding plate interlock for the main and top pair of breakers in a power distribution panel. I promote it myself.
It's all we ask for in the trade for a safe transfer and yet most folk refuse to even do that. They do however have a big screen TV, the sports and movie packs on satellite, a carton of smokes, a 24 of beer, takeout pizza, a four wheeler, a bass boat and a jacked up 4X4. Now lets have you come up with a term for such priorities over avoiding a flooded basement, spoiled food, falls in the dark, electrical shock and fires.
Am I supposed to sit here and in good conscience let people endanger themselves, family, lines personal and property
At least I care instead of just wanting to backstab people.
buickanddeere
Super Member
You won't believe several of use here but maybe you will believe the hundreds of sites ? Google " electrical code back feeding standby generator".
buckeyefarmer
Epic Contributor
I asked Leedscase about the code section prohibiting backfeeding from a subpanel, because he's the one who said it.
I asked you to define who the experts are that have told us we are "purposely doing something wrong"
So far neither have replied to what i asked.
I suggest some research "service entrance", and "back feed". You do know that grid tied solar, and other load sharing cogen systems backfeed every day, and it is perfectly legal and code compliant. Right?
I have my code book open, i see nothing that prohibits what the OP or Aaron is trying to do. Commercially it is not uncommon. Section 702 allows what the OP is trying to do, it's up to their AHJ to allow it.
For SAG, i did google "elecrical code backfeeding standby generator". Know what i found, a lot of references to "may be illegal", "could be dangerous", one from a county which wrongly referenced section 700, which is legally required emergency systems. None that gave a solid code answer, but i did not look at them all.
Bottom line is, when people replying here and use wrong terminology, or blindly say don't because I think it's dangerous, then yes, I am not going to believe you. When you start name calling, then you have already discredited yourself.
I have designed and worked on quite a few generator projects, and have held the title AHJ.
What are your credentials that I should believe you?