Solar power & Wind Power for residental use

[Egon]

You mean a typical conventional grid running at optimum has no reserve at hand?

Have you ever considered a grid with many scattered inputs allows for better distribution if it's design is correct. There are a lot of outdated grids and stations are there not.

What is the average distance span of the grid Ontario is connected with?

 

[buickanddeere]

The optimum grid uses low cost base load power to supply the entire grid during the periods of lowest demand . As demand increases other sources of reliable power is brought on line to supply the peaks.
That is the idea of the electrical grid . Should there be a failure of supply at s station or a transmission line fails . Power is immediately re-routed through from other sources or other lines. It's what the Internet copied for redundant paths for reliability .
Average span ? The 500KV, 230KV and 115KV main feeders . They run from Manitoba, Minnesota, Michigan, New York to Quebec. And from Michigan north to Armstrong or Nakina .
It took about a minute to google and find the length of the transmission lines etc. Quick Facts

 

[OldMcDonald]

On the 2014 power bill. 4% of the power was green and accounted for 20% of the energy cost.

I will repeat the figures I gave, which are those of the electricity generating company EDP - Wind 47.9%, Hydro 15.3%, Other renewables 10%, Fossil fuels 20.4% and Other 6.4%. As I already said I understand that the "Other" is mainly imported nuclear power that is generated in Spain. How do you make it that only 4% is "green" by which I presume you mean from renewable sources? And how do you calculate that that 4% was responsible for 20% of the cost?

As has been pointed out just above by Egon, a large number of small groups of wind turbines feeding into the grid right across the country (make that regions, areas or whatever else you want to call a few thousand square miles) together with all the power plants generating electricity from all the other sources (including imported nuclear in Portugal's case) means that surplus capacity can also be spread right across the country and called on as and when available/necessary. There is always spinning reserve in any country. I know only a little about Britain's system, but I am aware of people (I found out about this through a fellow farmer) who are paid to have enormous deisel generators standing in reserve so that they may be called upon at any time to fire them up and supply the grid. I forget the correct terminology for these standby systems that are not actually "spinning" reserves. Farms are useful places to have these because they are "out of the way" and the noise does not disturb many NIMBYs.

As I said earlier, it is your complete inflexibility that causes problems. Just accept that in some circumstances in the developed (or industrialised as you call it) world there is a place for power generated from other sources than nuclear. Wind and other renewables most certainly do not require a full capacity backup generating system as you posted at #329 and #330. That would mean it is anticipated there would be times when absolutely no power was being generated by these sources. No sun, no wind, no water flowing, no purposely grown biomass being available, and no combustible rubbish either, all at the same time? Not even you can believe that would occur. Have you noticed you often post twice too?

The "reality" is that nobody, at least nobody with any common sense, has ever claimed that every Watt of a country's (or even an individual's) power requirements can be met economically solely from wind or solar, or even both combined.

You are obviously an intelligent man, and I ask yet again that you simply open your mind ever so slightly to what is happening away from your nuclear brain. I am sure you will enjoy life more.

 

[KennyG]

Distributed grids have been proposed and discussed for years. The concept is that you have many small generators, geographically distributed. This reduces the need for large transmission lines and limits the stress on the grid with the loss of individual generating units. The problem is that the concept assumes high availability of generating units which is not a characteristic of wind/solar. Some environmental groups have tried to pair the advantages of the concept with local renewable generation, ignoring the availability issue. The result is that you end up with a need for many large battery installations or a massive high voltage DC transmission backbone.

The distributed concept does work if you accept the fact that natural gas will provide the bulk of our generation or you get behind the SMR (Small Modular Reactor) movement. The viability of local renewables in the mix only depends on the degree to which you are willing to subsidize their low availability and unpredictability.

 

[buickanddeere]

I will repeat the figures I gave, which are those of the electricity generating company EDP - Wind 47.9%, Hydro 15.3%, Other renewables 10%, Fossil fuels 20.4% and Other 6.4%. As I already said I understand that the "Other" is mainly imported nuclear power that is generated in Spain. How do you make it that only 4% is "green" by which I presume you mean from renewable sources? And how do you calculate that that 4% was responsible for 20% of the cost?

As has been pointed out just above by Egon, a large number of small groups of wind turbines feeding into the grid right across the country (make that regions, areas or whatever else you want to call a few thousand square miles) together with all the power plants generating electricity from all the other sources (including imported nuclear in Portugal's case) means that surplus capacity can also be spread right across the country and called on as and when available/necessary. There is always spinning reserve in any country. I know only a little about Britain's system, but I am aware of people (I found out about this through a fellow farmer) who are paid to have enormous deisel generators standing in reserve so that they may be called upon at any time to fire them up and supply the grid. I forget the correct terminology for these standby systems that are not actually "spinning" reserves. Farms are useful places to have these because they are "out of the way" and the noise does not disturb many NIMBYs.

As I said earlier, it is your complete inflexibility that causes problems. Just accept that in some circumstances in the developed (or industrialised as you call it) world there is a place for power generated from other sources than nuclear. Wind and other renewables most certainly do not require a full capacity backup generating system as you posted at #329 and #330. That would mean it is anticipated there would be times when absolutely no power was being generated by these sources. No sun, no wind, no water flowing, no purposely grown biomass being available, and no combustible rubbish either, all at the same time? Not even you can believe that would occur. Have you noticed you often post twice too?

The "reality" is that nobody, at least nobody with any common sense, has ever claimed that every Watt of a country's (or even an individual's) power requirements can be met economically solely from wind or solar, or even both combined.

You are obviously an intelligent man, and I ask yet again that you simply open your mind ever so slightly to what is happening away from your nuclear brain. I am sure you will enjoy life more.

4% in Ontario . Portugal is mostly residential loads without AC , btw which makes for a much flatter demand curve .
Base load generation is the total of nuclear in this case. Plus what hydro electric has to flow in run or river applications and at dam sites to maintain minimum stream flow.
All peaking generation on top of that needs to be dispatchable and costs more than base load power.
Where is the sense in paying solar 39.5 to 80.2 cents , wind 13.5 cents , gas 16.5 cents , nuclear paid zero, hydro electric paid zero and simultaneously pay NY and Michigan to take the surplus power ? You have yet to answer that question.
Why does my electrical bill run 18 cents per KW hr even though the wholesale average is 2-3cents?

 

[buickanddeere]

Distributed grids have been proposed and discussed for years. The concept is that you have many small generators, geographically distributed. This reduces the need for large transmission lines and limits the stress on the grid with the loss of individual generating units. The problem is that the concept assumes high availability of generating units which is not a characteristic of wind/solar. Some environmental groups have tried to pair the advantages of the concept with local renewable generation, ignoring the availability issue. The result is that you end up with a need for many large battery installations or a massive high voltage DC transmission backbone.

The distributed concept does work if you accept the fact that natural gas will provide the bulk of our generation or you get behind the SMR (Small Modular Reactor) movement. The viability of local renewables in the mix only depends on the degree to which you are willing to subsidize their low availability and unpredictability.

There will eventually come a time when gas turns $$$ and we will wish for cheaper coal to perform load following and even base load generation on some grid systems .
Most enviromentalists don't want to hear how clean a coal plant can operate. They seem to believe that NG combustion is as benign as Unicorn Pharts. The greenies invariably drag out a smogging image of a coal thermal station built in 1942 without controls and burning 100% anthracite .

 

[OldMcDonald]

4% in Ontario . Portugal is mostly residential loads without AC , btw which makes for a much flatter demand curve .

Where is the sense in paying solar 39.5 to 80.2 cents , wind 13.5 cents , gas 16.5 cents , nuclear paid zero, hydro electric paid zero and simultaneously pay NY and Michigan to take the surplus power ? You have yet to answer that question.
Why does my electrical bill run 18 cents per KW hr even though the wholesale average is 2-3cents?

What makes you say Portugal is mostly residential loads without AC? I am sure you are wrong, and that most demand is from business.

I have answered your question. I totally agreed that it is nonsense to pay these highly subsidised prices and it should not be done. Obviously you fail to read other people's posts too - and I did say you are an intelligent man. Now, I think you have to begin to prove that.

Your electric bill is at a much higher price than wholesale for the same reason that everything else you buy is so many times more than wholesale. How many times depends on how clever, or how greedy, those people in the middle are to be able to charge such high retail prices. Have you ever been in business on your own and seen the difference between your "farm gate" price for livestock and that charged by butchers in their shops? The butcher's mark up is more per week than the farmers' in a year. That is life.

Here is a golden opportunity for you. And I am absolutely certain that your closed mind will not even allow you to think about it for more than a few seconds. For the benefit of those who will think though, go and look at the links I gave earlier, see how people in your own area, and much harsher climates, are actually reducing their bought kWh average price by producing some of their own heat and sometimes electricity by the simple act of doing something for themselves and harnessing the power of the sun and the wind. Go on, I dare you to do it. I double dare you Big Chief. I triple dare you. Captain Hook and the alligator might come after you if you do not. And do not even think about saying that you do not believe in fairies. Think of poor Tinkabelle. You know if her light goes out she will die. But you can save her. Build a simple solar collector and keep her warm. Buy a 10W panel and light a LED for her. Keep her alive.

 

[techman]

Just remember, AC load is highest when the sun is shining !

paul

 

[buickanddeere]

Just remember, AC load is highest when the sun is shining !

paul

For of the AC load peak until 3:00PM. Solar output is dropping as the sun drops from direct inpingement to angle . A redundant generation system is required to carry the AC until 1-2hrs after sunset plus the evening cooking, laundry, lighting .

 

[buickanddeere]

What makes you say Portugal is mostly residential loads without AC? I am sure you are wrong, and that most demand is from business.

I have answered your question. I totally agreed that it is nonsense to pay these highly subsidised prices and it should not be done. Obviously you fail to read other people's posts too - and I did say you are an intelligent man. Now, I think you have to begin to prove that.

Your electric bill is at a much higher price than wholesale for the same reason that everything else you buy is so many times more than wholesale. How many times depends on how clever, or how greedy, those people in the middle are to be able to charge such high retail prices. Have you ever been in business on your own and seen the difference between your "farm gate" price for livestock and that charged by butchers in their shops? The butcher's mark up is more per week than the farmers' in a year. That is life.

Here is a golden opportunity for you. And I am absolutely certain that your closed mind will not even allow you to think about it for more than a few seconds. For the benefit of those who will think though, go and look at the links I gave earlier, see how people in your own area, and much harsher climates, are actually reducing their bought kWh average price by producing some of their own heat and sometimes electricity by the simple act of doing something for themselves and harnessing the power of the sun and the wind. Go on, I dare you to do it. I double dare you Big Chief. I triple dare you. Captain Hook and the alligator might come after you if you do not. And do not even think about saying that you do not believe in fairies. Think of poor Tinkabelle. You know if her light goes out she will die. But you can save her. Build a simple solar collector and keep her warm. Buy a 10W panel and light a LED for her. Keep her alive.

The distribution utility is public owned and distributes power at cost.
In the past 10+ years the wholesale price has dropped and the retail rate has increased . In order to subsidize green and pay over supply penalties to NY and Michigan.
As I said earlier in locations without low cost base load generation from nuclear, coal or NG. Then sure on small or isolated applications . Solar or wind is cheaper than purchasing diesel and operating a genset. Hawaii, 3rd world countries and isolated from grid applications.
I'm talking the large high demand distribution grid from the US south to the Canadian North.
It would appear that you idealize in wind and solar power power first and then put up with backup power supplies to cover green outages . Electrical Cost is not a concern. Hence 30+ cents per KW/hr.
I'm talking about where the lowest cost per KW of reliable clean generation so that industry can compete on the world market. Against China and such with lowest cost, no regard to pollution , health or safety.
Btw Captain Hook was played by a Nuclear Shift Supervisor. Nights , weekends and holidays he is the Ultimate boss over all trade groups , fire and security .