Any HVAC techs in the house?

   / Any HVAC techs in the house? #1  

General Lee

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Joined
Oct 13, 2009
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1,366
Location
Mid-Atlantic
Tractor
Kubota L4400, B2401
I just had a new AC/Heat pump installed last week. The company has been out twice since the install. First time was because a factory defect in the indoor coil. That was replaced and all seemed fine. Had them out today because my split temps were falling compared to last night when the new coil was installed. All their readings are testing within spec so I'm gonna let it ride for the time being.

Here is next dilemma, the unit is short cycling especially in the evening. Outdoor temps have cooled (its about 70* outside right now) house T-stat is set at 74. The AC is coming on and reaching set temp 4- 5 min and shutting off. 5 min being off, AC comes back on. On for 5 off for 5. All evening long. I got two other digital thermometers reading 73. House T-stat shows 74. I finally turned off the AC for now because I'm tired of hearing it.

The T-stat is a Honeywell 8000 programmable. Anything I can check before I bug the HVAC company again?
 
   / Any HVAC techs in the house? #2  
I just had a new AC/Heat pump installed last week. The company has been out twice since the install. First time was because a factory defect in the indoor coil. That was replaced and all seemed fine. Had them out today because my split temps were falling compared to last night when the new coil was installed. All their readings are testing within spec so I'm gonna let it ride for the time being.

Here is next dilemma, the unit is short cycling especially in the evening. Outdoor temps have cooled (its about 70* outside right now) house T-stat is set at 74. The AC is coming on and reaching set temp 4- 5 min and shutting off. 5 min being off, AC comes back on. On for 5 off for 5. All evening long. I got two other digital thermometers reading 73. House T-stat shows 74. I finally turned off the AC for now because I'm tired of hearing it.

The T-stat is a Honeywell 8000 programmable. Anything I can check before I bug the HVAC company again?
How big is the house and unit?
Load calculations?
 
   / Any HVAC techs in the house?
  • Thread Starter
#3  
Well after some reading I found out about cycles per hour (CPH) and my T-stat CPH can be changed. It's currently set to 5. 3 seems to be the common setting. I wonder if it has any adverse affects on my system changing it to 3 cycles per hour.

Sailfast - approx. 2,000 sq. foot. Don't know what you mean by Load calculations.
 
   / Any HVAC techs in the house? #4  
Sail is asking the Sq ft of the house and the size of the unit.
 
   / Any HVAC techs in the house? #5  
Usually the unit size is in tons, I bet you have 5 or 6...
 
   / Any HVAC techs in the house? #6  
Sailfast - approx. 2,000 sq. foot. Don't know what you mean by Load calculations.

If the AC unit is too big,, it can "cool" the thermostat too quickly.
In other words,, if the load calculations call for 3 tons, and they sold you a 4 ton unit,,, this would happen.
The main purpose of an AC is to remove the humidity. The AC ultimately reduces the temperature, also.

The major negative with an over-sized unit is that it does not run long enough to reduce the humidity.
A cool, dry house is comfortable,, a cool, humid house feels "clammy",,, or "sticky" or whatever.
 
   / Any HVAC techs in the house? #7  
Actually a cool dry house is unhealthy...contributes to alergy and other sinus problems. The system should be designed to maintain a healthy clean air in the home. Find an installer who thinks more in terms of 1 ton per thousand Sq ft rather than the traditional "wisdom" of 1 ton per 500 Sq ft and knows that healthy air has the proper humidity level which is much higher than you might expect.
 
   / Any HVAC techs in the house? #8  
Well after some reading I found out about cycles per hour (CPH) and my T-stat CPH can be changed. It's currently set to 5. 3 seems to be the common setting. I wonder if it has any adverse affects on my system changing it to 3 cycles per hour.

Definitely change your duty cycle setting and see if that moves you in the right direction. Second thing, is the thermostat too close to the unit where it is actually blowing on it?
 
   / Any HVAC techs in the house?
  • Thread Starter
#9  
Ok, The unit is a 3.5 ton with a 4 ton indoor coil. 14 SEER. The specs for the 3.5 ton unit were 1900 -2400 sq. foot. They didn't do any Manual J calculations and account for numbers of windows and doors. Just took square footage measurements. The old unit was a 3.5 ton as well.

Raspy - I did change the duty cycle to 3. For the last couple hours, it has ran 3 times within the hour. It is possible the T-stat could be picking up some vent air.
 
   / Any HVAC techs in the house? #10  
If the old unit that was the same size, worked well when it was still working, then your problem is in the control of it. Load calcs aren't going to tell you much here. Was the thermostat moved? I'd say to reduce your cycles per hour to the minimum and see if it begins to overshoot. If not you should be fine, that is unless it's blowing on the t-stat. But it really sounds like it is working OK, it's just annoying to hear it running. I get that and agree.
 
   / Any HVAC techs in the house? #11  
Well without doing a significant amount of free consulting you sound to be oversized.
You need to monitor your indoor humidity and indoor and outdoor temperature for bit; around 50% is generally ideal.
Where exactly do you live, your profile is somewhat vague in that.
A bigger evaporator than condenser can be a challenge to install properly as well. You might want to visit the...
HVAC-Talk: Heating, Air & Refrigeration Discussion
Forum and post there in the customer advice forum.
 
   / Any HVAC techs in the house? #12  
Btw..
AC units are typically over sized when the houses are built and the duct work is typically poorly installed and under sized for the equipment.
 
   / Any HVAC techs in the house? #13  
I am no HVAC expert, but will offer my thoughts.

First, where do you live? And do you have a single stage or two stage?

Many installers around here like to size based on cooling load. Which in ohio, is about half or less what a heating load is. So the result is a grossly undersized heating unit that is in constant need of backup heat, either strips, propane, etc. And when I say they size based on cooling load....that is they want the unit to run more often than not when temps get into the 90's. "for dehumidification".

Me, I dont like a unit that runs that freakin much. I'd rather oversize, and maybe have it run for 10-15 minutes every hour as opposed to 45 minutes out of every hour. Since winter temps here in ohio can get to single digits, and we really have a heating season thats about twice as long as cooling season, and highs only in the 90's, heating is more important to me.....and I like things sized for heating NOT cooling. 2-stage units are better for this, as a 2nd stage for heat can be used to hit the load demand without backup and in the summer, run on 1st stage 99% of the time.

But all that said, even if your unit is massively oversized, it shouldnt be short cycling. If the unit calls for cooling.....and it runs for 5 minutes and meets the demands of the house.....there is nothing at all wrong with that. What is concerning is that on a 70 degree day.....that it is calling for cooling again 5 minutes later??? Your house shouldnt be warming up that fast that it needs to kick right back on.

Ultimately I think the issue is with the t-stat programming. IS this a new t-stat?

The fully programmable t-stat I have, probably has some of the same features yours does. A couple of them being min run time, and min off time. Mine are set at 5min each. So even if demand is met in 3 min, it will run another two. And if more is called for in 3 minutes, it waits another two before restarting.

But the setting I think you need to look for is temp swing. It is impossible to keep the house exactly at 72.00 degrees 100% of the time. The second the unit kicks off, the house starts to warm up. 72.1......72.2......72.3......etc. So there needs to be a buffer. Mine is 1.5 degrees. So what that means is if my t-stat is set to 72, the unit wont come on until the house reaches 73.5. And it wont shut off til it cools to 70.5. The higher the swing, the less cycling. The lower the swing.....more cycling.

And mine being a 2-stage, I have it set to NOT kick to second stage until the unit calls for more than 2.5 degree difference vs actual temp. All of this is stuff that is programmed in the t-stat.
 
   / Any HVAC techs in the house? #14  
Me, I dont like a unit that runs that freakin much. I'd rather oversize, and maybe have it run for 10-15 minutes every hour as opposed to 45 minutes out of every hour. Since winter temps here in ohio can get to single digits, and we really have a heating season thats about twice as long as cooling season, and highs only in the 90's, heating is more important to me.....and I like things sized for heating NOT cooling. 2-stage units are better for this, as a 2nd stage for heat can be used to hit the load demand without backup and in the summer, run on 1st stage 99% of the time.

Todays HVAC systems run more efficiently when they run longer. AMP draw on start up will kill your electric bill. Inverter systems can basically run 24/7 and they use less power than most conventional split systems.

What a professional HVAC company should do is run a load on the house to determine what size system should be used (in the old days, "bigger was always better" does not hold true today with how tight homes can be). There are some generaly guidelines however that tend to hold true as long as you account for windows, building materials that should get you in the ball park per size if need be.

Generally, a two stage gas valve (furnace) and two stage compressor (outdoor AC/HP) tend to do a better job than single stage.
 
   / Any HVAC techs in the house? #15  
Todays HVAC systems run more efficiently when they run longer. AMP draw on start up will kill your electric bill. Inverter systems can basically run 24/7 and they use less power than most conventional split systems.

What a professional HVAC company should do is run a load on the house to determine what size system should be used (in the old days, "bigger was always better" does not hold true today with how tight homes can be). There are some generaly guidelines however that tend to hold true as long as you account for windows, building materials that should get you in the ball park per size if need be.

Generally, a two stage gas valve (furnace) and two stage compressor (outdoor AC/HP) tend to do a better job than single stage.

Not disagreeing with anything you said. But time and again I see so many "pros" talk about how terrible it is to oversize a system, both on the internet and in person, and IMO.....I only want to size the system properly.....and they want to grossly undersize it.

Just self-installed my geothermal unit this past spring. Got several quotes from many reputable companies in the area, and full of different options. All my quotes had options for air to air single stage and two stage systems, as well as geothermal single stage and two stage systems.

Based on a comprehensive manual J of my 1250sq ft house + basement, Heating load would be spot on 48k based on 0 degree ambient and 72 degree set. And cooling load was right at 19k based on 95 ambient and 72 set point.

ALL of my quotes were for 2-ton single stage units, and 3-ton 2-stage units as per their recommendations. I told all of them that was unacceptable and design the system based on heating load. And quote me 4-ton prices for both single stage and dual stage. Two of the companies I had to spend 5 minutes trying to convince them why I wanted 4-ton, and then listen to their long-winded BS about dehumidification, and oversized is inefficient, etc etc. Well.....24k BTU heating when I need 48k in the winter requires backup. We dont have Nat gas. And I dont have a propane furnace. So bout the only options for B/U are strips, my current baseboard heaters, or install a propane furnace and tank. Where is the efficiency in getting 1/2 of my heat for the winter out of basebaords or strips???

The third company just flat out refused. They said they would not install a 4-ton unit on my house and declined to quote.

A neighbor (the guy that farms the ~600acres in my area), just built a new house w/geothermal about 10-15 years ago. He has complained about that system since new. Said his electric bills in the winter are outrageous and his backup strips are on all the time. But is happy with the summer preformance. Perfect example of sizing for cooling needs.

Its pretty simple IMO, we have to heat for 6-7 months out of the year here. And only have a ~3 month cooling season. The remainder (like this time of year) dont need anything. 80 degree days and 60 degree nights....nice average of 70. Open the window at night, close during day. Not hard at all to keep the house in the 68-72 comfort range. Heating is my priority. I am not gonna spend 10-15 grand on a system that cannot heat my house without relying on the same inefficient method as my baseboards. So size the darn thing to keep me warm. And in the summer.....if it only runs 10 minutes per hour....and dont dehumidify well.....who cares. 72 degrees at 60% is just as fine with me as 72 @ 35% is.
 
   / Any HVAC techs in the house?
  • Thread Starter
#16  
I appreciate the responses everyone - Hopefully I answer everyone's questions. First, I'm assuming I have a single stage unit, not sure how I can confirm this. I'm only assuming single stage because as I was going through the T-stat settings I saw that setting set to 1. The install tech set up the T-stat.

The T-stat is new. I live in Maryland (southern part)

Sailfast - I have a digital hygrometer and with the old AC unit humidity read between 49-51%. Since the new unit, and cooler less humid days I've seen it read 42-44%

LD1 - As far as I can tell this T-stat doesn't have a temp swing setting. Just a cycle per hour setting which I changed from 5 to 3.
 
   / Any HVAC techs in the house? #17  
The temp swing is also called an 'anticipator' setting...
 
   / Any HVAC techs in the house? #18  
Could also be called differential.

My stat is a Pro1 wireless. It has separate settings for cooling swing and heating swing. Factory default setting was .5 for cooling and .4 for heating. I didnt want the thing cycling that much just to try to keep it within 1/2 degree of 72.

My t-stat also has humidify and dehumidify options. Where it moniters the humidity in the house and can turn the unit on or off based on humidity. So I could be within the swing of my setpoint temperature wise, but if humidity isnt within the range, it is allowed to cycle. And thus alot of other settings along with that, such as amount of over-cooling allowed (how far below 72 degree setpoint I allow to try to satisfy humidity level).

Most all modern programmable t-stats have a way to adjust the swing. Do you have the manual to the t-stat?

An oversized unit may very well be the reason for running such a short time. But does NOT explain why it comes on so soon after it shuts off.
 
   / Any HVAC techs in the house? #19  
Is this the t-stat you have https://customer.honeywell.com/resources/techlit/TechLitDocuments/68-0000s/68-0280.pdf

If so, look at installer setup # 0680 and 0690. Not sure if thats what you need, but it appears thats what tells the furnace when to start/stop based on t-stat temp. Weather you want it to control the temp aggressively (try as hard as it can to keep it right on the setpoint without going too far over/under desired temp......frequent cycling).....or a looser setting allowing a little more over/under
 
   / Any HVAC techs in the house? #20  
Two things. One is the stat may be in a spot where there is airflow directly from a register. That can cause short cycling. The other is that you have a larger air handler, which is good for efficiency, but has a potential problem. Assuming it is not a variable speed unit, it should have the ability to select one of 3 fan speeds. I would change (or ask the installer to change) the fan speed to the lowest setting. Assuming that the installer used a TXV valve, it will compensate for the lower air flow rate. Normally a larger air handler has a fan with a higher flow rate. Given the size and the fact that the unit is higher efficiency, I would slow the fan to reduce the effect you are seeing.

Paul
 

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