County Water Pressure Too High

[Pettrix]

I have only said that a couple dozen times or so. I don't know why the name "Valveman" doesn't clue you in.

Maybe in your profile just state that you sell CSV's. No need to expound on more than that. Just state: FULL DISCLOSURE - I sell CSV's

 

[Valveman]

Maybe in your profile just state that you sell CSV's. No need to expound on more than that. Just state: FULL DISCLOSURE - I sell CSV's

Edited my bio. How is this for FULL DISCLOSURE?

About Valveman
4th generation Well Driller/Pump Installer
Lubbock,TX
Helping people solve their pump system problems
Inventor and owner of Cycle Stop Valves, which came from years of experience with VFD's
Cary Austin

 

[Gary Fowler]

And that leak is probably going to be costly.

I am very careful not to leave my hoses on, and it still happened this year.

My water pressure is only 45 psi, and the leak cost me $50.

Water here is fairly cheap, compared to most places.

Prior to me building my house, my brother in law had some cows running on the land. One day he noticed that a cow had pushed the hydrant over and it was running full blast. The meter showed it had ran approximately 200,000 gallons of water out before he could shut it off and fix the hydrant. It was a new meter and we hadn't used more than 1500 gallons just filling the septic tank after installation so it was easy to see how much water ran out.
Cows love to rub up against trees and any other object sticking up to scratch off parasites so the faucet was a good scratch post. He drove a 7 foot T post against the repaired faucet so the top was just below the faucet (about 4 feet into the ground). We had no more broken hydrants after that. I never did know what that cost since my brother in law paid the water bill for that month.

 

[orezok]

My meter is at the end of a pressure zone and it has 140# on it. It used to have 150# until they installed a new water main in the highway. I guess they were able to lower the pressure while being able to serve the upstream points with the new main. My 2" lateral is about 800' long so I installed a PR at the meter set at 80#. I also installed a bypass at that PR in order to provide the full 140# for fire suppression. I installed several 1 1/2" fire hose connection points and keep 300' of 1 1/2" fire hose available.

I have secondary PR's at the house and shop to bring the 80# down to a more useable pressure.

 

[prichard]

Actually it is very common. What do you think happens when a pressure transducer malfunctions? And that is just one of several ways VFD's can cause pressure spikes.

Barbara Hesselgrave and Water Efficiency Magazine are both well respected in the industry. I don't advertise with them or anything. They would have no reason to spread bs for me. But if you are going to hate on me anyway for something written by someone else, here are a couple more.

All About the Cycle Stop Valve (CSV) - Forester Network

More Benefits of the Cycle Stop Valve (CSV) - Forester Network

Not directed at you. I also know how trade mags are written - most articles are written by people that make money off their point of view. However in almost all threads you respond to you push your product. But that's not advertising.

But I set up and maintained hundreds of VFD based distribution systems for municipalities all over the southeast and they by far rather VFDs to any sort of valving. Pressure transducer failure is not very common and there are often safeguards for that. Most utilities were thrilled to get rid of any kind of mechanical flow/pressure controls. Much easier and no pipeline disturbances to replace a VFD or sensor.

 

[Valveman]

Not directed at you. I also know how trade mags are written - most articles are written by people that make money off their point of view. However in almost all threads you respond to you push your product. But that's not advertising.

Many years ago I was trying to solve the problem of my customers cycling their pumps to death. I started with VFD’s, and studied electrical engineering. Back then everyone used a valve as a backup for the VFD, which gave me a lot of experience with both. It soon became obvious that these systems were running on the control valves a lot of the time, as that is what happens when the VFD stops working. Even today that is what happens. The “safeguards” for when a pressure transducer or VFD fails is a common pressure relief valve, which is simple and reliable, mostly because it is completely mechanical.

Because of all the problems I was having with VFD’s, the CSV was designed to mimic the constant pressure delivery of a VFD. We called it a Cycle Stop Valve because we thought that was all it did. However, it didn’t take long to discover that eliminating pump cycling also solved about 90% of all other pump system problems. So now when someone mentions failures with check valves, bladder tanks, pressure switches, contactors, broken pipes, etc., I explain that cycling is the real cause of those problems. When the pump keeps coming unscrewed, chaffing the drop wire, banging against the casing, causing water hammer, etc., the real cause of the problem is cycling. Cycling can even be attributed to sediment and other stuff, as not only is the pump cycling, but the well is cycling (surging) also. And yes we still replace a lot of VFD’s. Anytime an owner gets tired of trying to mitigate all the problems of VFD’s, it is replaced with a CSV.

So it is very hard to help with any pump system problems and not mention the CSV, as it actually solves most of those problems. You can’t help someone with a headache and not mention the remedy.

But I set up and maintained hundreds of VFD based distribution systems for municipalities all over the southeast and they by far rather VFDs to any sort of valving. Pressure transducer failure is not very common and there are often safeguards for that. Most utilities were thrilled to get rid of any kind of mechanical flow/pressure controls. Much easier and no pipeline disturbances to replace a VFD or sensor.

You are exactly right about that. But that is because nobody knows or wants to know anything about pumps or anything anymore. If there isn’t a color display to tell them what the problem is, and if they can’t fix it by pushing a few buttons, they are lost. The few people in this world still alive that really understand pumps know that CSV’s are much better for pumps than VFD’s. But most people, including many pump contractors, can’t change a simple pressure gauge unless they have an app for it. One little EMP and we are doomed. There just aren’t any people around anymore that can keep and engine or a pump running with a little Duct Tape and some Bailing Wire.

“Much easier” doesn’t make it right. Quality, longevity, and even common sense are usually sacrificed for easy.

 

[JRobyn]

..... installed a bypass at that PR in order to provide the full 140# for fire suppression. I installed several 1 1/2" fire hose connection points and keep 300' of 1 1/2" fire hose available....

The possibility of fire suppression is a big part of why I did NOT regulate mine down until right at the house. I installed regular yard hydrants every 100yds or so, but just 3/4". I would have very much liked to have 1-1/2" connection points, but couldn't find any I could afford! I used a total of six. "Real" fire suppression equipment is EXPENSIVE!

 

[Pettrix]

Cycling with a standard pump does hurt the longevity of the pump and of the whole system. The pump wants to unscrew itself from the drop pipe and the harsh starts and stops take a toll on the drop pipe, drop wire and the pump of course.

Selling CSV's is a million dollar business so the more it is discussed in this and other online forums, the bigger the marketing area, the more money for Valveman.

What I have a problem with (as do many others), is that it is impossible for Valveman not to be bias. He sells CSVs. His posts are always going to promote CSV's and put down VFDs (which are his competition). The biggest competition for Valveman and his CSVs are VFDs since they address the problem of cycling.

A VFD prevents hard-starts since it has a soft-start motor and a soft-stop motor. Cycling doesn't hurt the pump since it starts soft and turns off in the same manner. Safety parameters are build into VFD's and adjust pressures, overheat, dry well, voltage surges, etc.

Remember, Valveman is ALL OVER the internet forum websites. Not just this site but all over the internet. If someone in some forum posts something about VFDs, you can guarantee that Valveman will be on that site slamming VFDs and promoting his CSVs. The more he posts on the internet, the more he markets his product.

As I said, it is IMPOSSIBLE for him not to be bias. He sells CSVs and VFDs are his competition. That's the reality. It's nothing personal against him, I don't even know him, but that's the truth and reality of these discussions.

 

[4570Man]

If you install a backflow protection valve on the house with the water heater on the downstream side you MUST, MUST, MUST install a thermal expansion tank for your water heater. If you don't and your heater fails in a way that causes it to superheat, the water can't back up into the supply lines and your water heater will turn into a rocket or explode, neither of which is fun. There really is no reason to install a bpv on a house, unless you're installing a booster pump (which you definitely don't need here). BPVs are used to protect the potable water supply from contamination and every fixture in your house already has that protection built into it. Faucets, showers and tubs are air gapped, toilets have ABVs, all hose bibs should have ABVs by current code, etc. You need them for irrigation systems, make-up lines for ponds, pools or water features and those sorts of things but, those are all open loop systems. On closed loop systems, you've got to have thermal expansion protection.

Not exactly. The water heater has at least one safety to prevent this from happening. You still need the expansion tank otherwise the water heater pressure relive value opens and leaks water in the floor.

 

[Valveman]

Cycling with a standard pump does hurt the longevity of the pump and of the whole system. The pump wants to unscrew itself from the drop pipe and the harsh starts and stops take a toll on the drop pipe, drop wire and the pump of course.

Selling CSV's is a million dollar business so the more it is discussed in this and other online forums, the bigger the marketing area, the more money for Valveman.

What I have a problem with (as do many others), is that it is impossible for Valveman not to be bias. He sells CSVs. His posts are always going to promote CSV's and put down VFDs (which are his competition). The biggest competition for Valveman and his CSVs are VFDs since they address the problem of cycling.

A VFD prevents hard-starts since it has a soft-start motor and a soft-stop motor. Cycling doesn't hurt the pump since it starts soft and turns off in the same manner. Safety parameters are build into VFD's and adjust pressures, overheat, dry well, voltage surges, etc.

Remember, Valveman is ALL OVER the internet forum websites. Not just this site but all over the internet. If someone in some forum posts something about VFDs, you can guarantee that Valveman will be on that site slamming VFDs and promoting his CSVs. The more he posts on the internet, the more he markets his product.

As I said, it is IMPOSSIBLE for him not to be bias. He sells CSVs and VFDs are his competition. That's the reality. It's nothing personal against him, I don't even know him, but that's the truth and reality of these discussions.

Of course I am biased, but not as much as you. You fell for the VFD hype, which is evident because you keep quoting the highlights of their glossy brochures. Then you paid the high price and purchased a VFD system, so now you desperatly want to believe you made the most intelligent decission. As I said, time will tell. I know very few people who have had a VFD for 5-10 years or so that are still happy with it.
They don't put the many negatives of a VFD on the glossy brochures. But when you have been dealing with them for 30+ years and helping people deal with the problems like I have, you can make a long list of negatives.

I was already having problems with VFD;s and was biasd against them before CSV's ever existed. The fact that I was having problems with VFD's, is why CSV's were invented.

I am all over the internet as I want to help people keep from falling for the VFD hype. It is much easier for me to just wait until they have problems with a VFD to sell them a CSV. But I still try to keep them from having gone through all those problems before they figure out the stuff in the glossy brochures is all hype.

As i said, it is IMPOSSIBLE for Pettrix to not be biased. He purchased a VFD and wants desperately to believe he made an intelligent decission. That is the reality. It is nothing personal against him, I don't even know him, but that is the truth and the reality of these discussions.

I hope he keeps his thread updatted for the next 5-10 years and tells us about all the problems he had. But that is not likely to happen, as people rarely come back and admit they were wrong.

There is absolutely nothing to keep the manufacutrers, engineers, and installers of VFD's from coming on the forums and argueing with me. But you won't see that either. They can't argue with the facts. If they could prove any one thing I say about VFD's was not true, they would have taken me to court and put me out of business a long time ago. If you think Pettrix doesn't like what I say about VFD's, you can just imagine what VFD manufacturers think about what I say. But they can't argue with the facts. And they don't have to, as long as people keep believing what they read in the glossy brochures and don't really do the researh needed to understand the problems with VFD's.