Continuous use of 3rd Function Valve?

[FatTire]

I noticed that WR Long says their 3rd Function Valve kit cannot be used for continuous applications (hydraulic auger, for example) because it will over-heat. Is that true with other common valves? Kubota factory valve?

 

[Fallon]

Inquiring minds want to know... Have an OEM 3rd function on my Kubota L4060. Picking up a plow shortly, but that's intermittent. Curious about the viability to use the 3rd function for a PHD auger or fix up my busted 3pt cement mixer as a hydraulically spun SSQA mount down the road at some point.

 

[dfkrug]

I noticed that WR Long says their 3rd Function Valve kit cannot be
used for continuous applications (hydraulic auger, for example) because it will over-heat.

First I have heard that. The Long valves I have seen are all solenoid-operated diverters. So-called
"electric-over-hydraulic" spool valves. Did they say that the fluid would overheat, or the solenoid?

All the solenoid valves I buy have 100% duty-cycle coils, so that is not likely to be what they are
talking about. If, however, the valve has a flow rating lower than your tractor puts out (about 9GPM
for the MX), then it will heat the fluid if asked to run continuously and under pressure.

 

[jenkinsph]

Don't know about the WR Long valve but I am sure that Kubota's valve is capable of running the implements both of you mention. I have run my 110 valves for drilling deep post holes in rocky ground for several minutes at a time.

 

[kennyd]

First I have heard that. The Long valves I have seen are all solenoid-operated diverters. So-called
"electric-over-hydraulic" spool valves. Did they say that the fluid would overheat, or the solenoid?

All the solenoid valves I buy have 100% duty-cycle coils, so that is not likely to be what they are
talking about. If, however, the valve has a flow rating lower than your tractor puts out (about 9GPM
for the MX), then it will heat the fluid if asked to run continuously and under pressure.

WRL has both a diverter and a "true 3rd function" valve.

I guess you have to define "continuous" too, because I would not consider a HPHD to be "continuous" since it generally takes only a few seconds or a minute to drill a hole

 

[FatTire]

Around here it can take a long time to dig a post hole. I'll often sit on a single rock for several minutes, grinding away to see if I can break through. (Not usually, but sometimes it works...)

Here is the quote:

Our valve is made for momentary use like open / close or left / right operation. It is not made for rotary implements like augers. The valve has a extremely tight tolerance and if held down to use a rotary attachment it will heat up and swell causing the valve to seize. Thanks!

-Josh Nabb, W R Long, Inc.

 

[dfkrug]

Around here it can take a long time to dig a post hole. I'll often sit on
a single rock for several minutes, grinding away to see if I can break through. (Not usually, but sometimes it works...)

Yeah, rocks are so common here, you usually can't use a PHD at all. If you hire the pros, I have seen
them take minutes per hole.

Momentary use is intermittantly operating cylinders; continuously flow is any hydraulic rotary
motor. Even running a hyd motor that is not working real hard will heat the oil up fast
if the valve is sized smaller than optimum.

Similarly, I run my hyd mixer at low speed thru smaller-than-optimal hoses and they
really heat up.

Long has just used small valves. I do that too, on my 4-in-1 bkt, but not for motors.

 

[CJONE]

Around here it can take a long time to dig a post hole. I'll often sit on a single rock for several minutes, grinding away to see if I can break through. (Not usually, but sometimes it works...)

Here is the quote:

Our valve is made for momentary use like open / close or left / right operation. It is not made for rotary implements like augers. The valve has a extremely tight tolerance and if held down to use a rotary attachment it will heat up and swell causing the valve to seize. Thanks!

-Josh Nabb, W R Long, Inc.

He is talking about the coil on the valve. Like was stated earlier they obviously are not 100% duty cycle coils. CJ

 

[RNeumann]

WR Long uses a Hyvair DO3 valve- so I'm told. Hyvair valves do us a continuous duty solenoid. They make valves that will flow from under 8 gpm to over 25gpm. The issue of overheating at the valve would then be the result of undersizing the valve to either save space or cost. Or Hyvair valves are not rated correctly- very unlikely!

http://www.hyvair.com/pdf/solenoidd035vlv.pdf

If the failure is an electrical issue that is most likely the result of an undersized switch on the joystick. This would be overcome with a better switch or a relay.

The nice joysticks can be purchased here-


Scorpion Technologies LTD. - S-Series

The joystick and valve are about $100 each. You would then need to make 2 brackets and add the hoses.

Both Hyvair and Scorpion can be contacted directly but I don't think Hyvair sells direct.

 

[RNeumann]

He is talking about the coil on the valve. Like was stated earlier they obviously are not 100% duty cycle coils. CJ

Not according to the valve manufacture....

 

[jenkinsph]

Good quality valves and solenoid coils with a higher flow rating than your system is the way to go.

With all the trouble it takes building up valves on a tractor I would spend a little more and get larger valves. Not much more money.

 

[RNeumann]

Good quality valves and solenoid coils with a higher flow rating than your system is the way to go.

With all the trouble it takes building up valves on a tractor I would spend a little more and get larger valves. Not much more money.

SECOND THAT!!!

 

[CJONE]

Not according to the valve manufacture....

I was just responding to the suppliers response. OR the supplier is having a issue they cannot figure out. This would be my guess. CJ

 

[RNeumann]

Makes sense. It seems WR along has a good reputation and I assume 99% of folks would never use the 3rd function for continuous use. So to keep costs down and save some space they use a small valve. Unfortunately when someone wants to push a hydraulic motor it overheats the little valve. The WR Long quote clever and is difficult make sense of.
I just wanted folks to know that products exist that will do what they want- and it might even be cheaper than the kits that are out there. If it came across wrong my apologies. Not at all my intent. I will delete my post if I can figure out how.

Edit: I think since it's been quoted it won't allow me to delete it.

 

[CJONE]

With these cartridge style valves a coil slides over the stem and inside the stem there is a spool that slides inside that part of the valve. If the valve does not "latch" or shift all the way from dirt or being hit and slightly bent it will destroy the coil in short order. A lot of times the vendor will blame the valve in this situation. My guess is the coils were burning up and they blame this on the valves being too small?? A valve being too small will cause 2 heat sources, one at the valve because of the restriction and possibly if it is restricted enough it will cause the relief to open and that is a huge heat generator. If there is any way possible I try to stay away from the "poppet" style cartridge valves for anything with higher GPM flows. But sometimes space is a big consideration and these can be a huge space saver. Anyway it is all good! CJ

 

[jenkinsph]

With these cartridge style valves a coil slides over the stem and inside the stem there is a spool that slides inside that part of the valve. If the valve does not "latch" or shift all the way from dirt or being hit and slightly bent it will destroy the coil in short order. A lot of times the vendor will blame the valve in this situation. My guess is the coils were burning up and they blame this on the valves being too small?? A valve being too small will cause 2 heat sources, one at the valve because of the restriction and possibly if it is restricted enough it will cause the relief to open and that is a huge heat generator. If there is any way possible I try to stay away from the "poppet" style cartridge valves for anything with higher GPM flows. But sometimes space is a big consideration and these can be a huge space saver. Anyway it is all good! CJ

I purchased a Danfoss PVG 32 series valve with two spool sections and pvem coils recently. While this is a proportional valve it does not appear to use the same coil and traveling slug as the valves I see on Surplus Center. I think the spools are hydraulic driven on this Danfoss valve and use one coil assembly instead of two coils. My valve is continuous duty and rated for 30+ gpm. My tractor has a maximum flow of about 12 gpm so friction and heat should be less of a problem.

 

[CJONE]

I purchased a Danfoss PVG 32 series valve with two spool sections and pvem coils recently. While this is a proportional valve it does not appear to use the same coil and traveling slug as the valves I see on Surplus Center. I think the spools are hydraulic driven on this Danfoss valve and use one coil assembly instead of two coils. My valve is continuous duty and rated for 30+ gpm. My tractor has a maximum flow of about 12 gpm so friction and heat should be less of a problem.

The valve you purchased is not even in the same world as the cartridge/poppet valves we were talking about. Way wayyy better. That valve is very conservatively rated and depending on how it is configured can flow over 60gpm. I would bet on almost 0 back pressure at 12 gpm. The only thing you need to remember is the valve is rated to control 30 gpm so you will only have 1/2 of your control voltage, the other half will be deadband. CJ

 

[jenkinsph]

The valve you purchased is not even in the same world as the cartridge/poppet valves we were talking about. Way wayyy better. That valve is very conservatively rated and depending on how it is configured can flow over 60gpm. I would bet on almost 0 back pressure at 12 gpm. The only thing you need to remember is the valve is rated to control 30 gpm so you will only have 1/2 of your control voltage, the other half will be deadband. CJ

I specified 10 gpm spools for this valve but was referring to the concern for friction and heat build up through the main circulating loop. When the valves are not energized to operate cylinders I am hoping for a limited effect on the tractor hydraulic system. Trying to determine if I need the 3/4" hoses for the pressure and return hoses or will 1/2" work well enough for the 12 gpm flow rating?

The cylinder lines are 1/2" for two sections and the supply and return lines are 3/4" which I ordered.

Will be using this with a Topcon 9164 dual channel control head for laser grading. As I understand the system is set up for a 2.5 volt signal corresponds to the valve being in neutral. Voltages above or below this will adjust or feather the spools according to the difference in the voltage. My concern is making sure I can get fine or coarse adjustments as needed. This all happens fast enough I don't want the cylinders to over shoot the desired grade change needed to hold it steady.

Trying to get this all hooked up in the next month and there are so many variables I do get a little apprehensive wondering what I may have gotten wrong. The cables will be here for all the electronics next Monday. That has been a long time coming.

 

[CJONE]

You are at the top of the chart for pressure lines. You are fine with the 1/2" for cylinder lines. 3/4" return is good also. I always use sweeping 90's for pressure and malleable fittings for return. CJ