Is gasoline really only 10% ethanol?

[def38]

True. Whatever the pump is labeled for, the ethanol content cannot exceed that amount. On 10%, most times it is less than 10% to avoid the risk of exceeding the 10% maximum. The state fuel testers can show up at random and check and if a station is found out of compliance with the ethanol blend, it has to shut down operation till corrected. I have seen testing data that shows most 10% ethanol pumps hardly ever exceed 8% actual.

And, you trust that the state inspectors are routinely sampling, analyzing, reporting and issuing citations for violations regarding RFG and pump accuracy?

I don't know how many inspectors are licensed here in Dixieland to perform these tests but, I'll bet it is a small number given most state's budgets. And how many fuel retailer are there? I say the likelihood of your local fuel retailer getting inspected annually is rather low.

 

[vsteel]

The brainiacs that changed MTBE to ethanol were not engine/fuel/engineers...they were politicians who don't know a BTU from a fencepost.

MTBE is still used almost exclusively in Europe. MTBE is made from natural gas and is much cheaper than ethanol. As an oxygenate for motor fuel, it raises octane and supports complete combustion. Also, MTBE blend motor fuel does not have the problems associated with ethanol blends.

It was found to be getting into drinking water, which was the major factor in the switch.

 

[DEWFPO]

It was found to be getting into drinking water, which was the major factor in the switch.

That is absolutely correct. I was one of the poor bastards that spent part of my life responsible for cleaning up the leaking underground steel storage tanks and the associated contamination in the ground and the ground water. MtBE (Methyl Tert-Butyl Ether) or Ethanol was legislated in as an oxygenate for the fuel. MtBE was the better choice and cheaper to manufacture, but it created far more problems once it got into the ground or groundwater whereas ethanol is essentially natural and biodegradable and most people don't panic as much when they find out that alcohol was spilled as opposed to something that they think of as methyl-ethyl-death. So it was legislated back out after the producers spent many millions of dollars to build plants to make MtBE.

Now that most all UST (Underground Storage Tanks) are double walled fiberglass with constant leak monitoring and alarming in the interstitial space between the 2 walls, we could probably go back to MtBE and be fairly safe but that likely won't happen because of the public's stigma already associated with it.

DEWFPO

 

[Winmac]

I was picking up some chainsaw carb kits at a husqvarna shop and he brought up the topic of ethanol, I told him I was well aware of the issues but asked how they deal with related warranty claims. His reply was that they have a tester and check the gas in every saw that comes in for warranty, he also revealed that they tested different grades of gas from local stations and found them to be higher that advertised.
The 10% tested 15-20 and the mid grade was 20-30 this is in Canada, Nova Scotia mind you. Maybe the tester was rigged to deny warranty claims who knows.

 

[DEWFPO]

The 10% tested 15-20 and the mid grade was 20-30 this is in Canada, Nova Scotia mind you. Maybe the tester was rigged to deny warranty claims who knows.

I am not familiar with the regs and enforcement in Nova Scotia but I am very dubious of those numbers and find them impossible to believe. I think your last sentence unfortunately might be right on target. It wouldn't be the first time someone used rigged equipment to enforce or deny a claim.

DEWFPO

 

[def38]

It was found to be getting into drinking water, which was the major factor in the switch.

Yes. The major source for the MTBE in groundwater were leaking tanks. So, rather than have the retailers fix their leaking tanks, they changed the oxygenate made from a major food source grain at a higher cost with associated materials compatibility issues. I call that dumb. The tanks still leak and we pay the higher price for ethanol blended fuel. BTW, how many gasoline motor fuel blends are mandated across the US? At one time, it was in excess of 150. These boutique fuel blends were politically motivated like so many of our EPA regs.

Also, the major refiners make large campaign contributions.I wonder if that had anything to do with it?

 

[DEWFPO]

..... So, rather than have the retailers fix their leaking tanks, .......

By law, once a tank is found to be leaking it must be replaced or repaired, or drained and shut down or huge fines are assessed. I worked in 11 western and northwestern states and the laws were the same. I can't speak for every state however.

I do agree, there are way too many boutique fuels that increase the cost of our fuel. Nowadays, the computer systems on vehicles are so sophisticated I believe the need for oxygenated fuels has come and gone. I think, most of the country would be in EPA air compliance using good old 100% gasoline. But what do I know.

DEWFPO

 

[def38]

By law, once a tank is found to be leaking it must be replaced or repaired, or drained and shut down or huge fines are assessed. I worked in 11 western and northwestern states and the laws were the same. I can't speak for every state however.

I do agree, there are way too many boutique fuels that increase the cost of our fuel. Nowadays, the computer systems on vehicles are so sophisticated I believe the need for oxygenated fuels has come and gone. I think, most of the country would be in EPA air compliance using good old 100% gasoline. But what do I know.

DEWFPO

I'm no engine designer but, oxygenates do support more complete combustion and that's a good thing. Engines could be designed to run just fine on non-oxygenated fuels but, at the expense of less power. Many engines need octane enhancement to prevent detonation, especially in later life. A good detergent system can cure detonation due to combustion chamber carbon buildup.

The thing that always surprised me was that the MTBE could be stored on the retailers site above ground and the MTBE added at the pump, eliminating the opportunity for MTBE to enter the groundwater. That way the expense of excavating the leaking tank could be avoided allowing only gasoline to leak from the tank.

Electric cars are going to struggle to achieve the miles per charge vs. the miles per tank of liquid motor fuel. The energy density for batteries just isn't there yet.

T. Boone Pickens has a good idea...convert the over the road truck fleet to LNG...no DEF, no expensive diesel fuel, no soot, minimum tailpipe emissions and longer engine life.

 

[Copperhead]

So, rather than have the retailers fix their leaking tanks, they changed the oxygenate made from a major food source grain at a higher cost with associated materials compatibility issues. I call that dumb.

I wouldn't. Corn prices are lower, on an inflation adjusted basis, than they were 20 years ago. That means there is a glut of corn on the market. To use some of that for ethanol production seems pretty smart to me. Especially since ethanol is not the only thing coming out the back end of those plants. Plastics and polymers are also made, high protein feed supplements are made, even the insulators of spark plugs are made from byproducts of ethanol production. There is a considerable laundry list of products that come from ethanol plants. And a large portion of the CO2 used in soft drinks and such comes from ethanol plants. And all of this does not affect the cost or availability of corn as a food item for anyone.

 

[Gary Fowler]

I have read that the use of 100% gasoline is regulated to a specified amount sold in some states. I don't really understand that at all nor how they limit the sale. I have two stations within 12 miles of me that sell non-ethanol gasoline not to mention all the marinas and the 100% pure gas in the super high octane gasoline (example Shell Premium which is ethanol free). There seem to be more and more stations around here that are selling pure gas and it is usually about 30 cents a gallon higher if you just buy regular (87 and 89 Octane). IIRC the Shell premium is over a dollar higher per gallon, I don't buy much of that (one tank fill up in my motorcycle at end of riding season )