Heat pump replacement.... ideas on which brands are better?

[TractorGuy]

What I have seen in several types of refrigeration is compressors not lasting. Maybe just unlucky but I've had two fail at home and seen several at work. All Coleman compressors.

My home AC is a package unit made by Goodman. The first unit installed when the home was built was a little undersized. The compressor failed just under 5 years old and Goodman warranted it. When the tech opened it up to check it he handed me the owners manual I was not given when it was installed. They never took it out of the unit. Inside it had a 5 year parts and labor warranty offer on the compressor for $20. I told him I would have paid that $20 in a heartbeat had they given me the manual when they put it in. The tech called Goodman and explained I was not given the offer at time of install and they covered the whole thing for $20. Can't beat that for customer service on the MFG end. Unit failed again and I don't remember exactly when but I bought a 1/2 ton larger Goodman package unit and hooked it up myself. You don't get any warranty if you do that but I can buy 3 of them for what a pro wants to install one.

So far I think this unit is at least 12 years old and I have replaced 2 start capacitors and the supplemental heat strips once. It's an old R22 unit with a 13 SER rating so if the compressor ever goes so will the unit.

 

[General Lee]

I just had an American Standard installed last summer by a reputable company. I'm not happy with it. Day one the TXV valve was defective. They replaced the whole indoor coil. But the unit struggles to cool in hot weather. I've had them out numerous times to check it and it always falls within manufacture specs they tell me. So now I'll wait til a hot hot day and have them test it. Because that's when it shows its problem. I truly believe the R22 wasn't flushed well enough and is mixing with the 410. The harder the unit works the more it's drawing refrigerant and I believe it's gumming up. And my electric bill has dramatically increased since the install for a more energy efficient unit then my old one. Not happy at all.

 

[kenmac]

I just had an American Standard installed last summer by a reputable company. I'm not happy with it. Day one the TXV valve was defective. They replaced the whole indoor coil. But the unit struggles to cool in hot weather. I've had them out numerous times to check it and it always falls within manufacture specs they tell me. So now I'll wait til a hot hot day and have them test it. Because that's when it shows its problem. I truly believe the R22 wasn't flushed well enough and is mixing with the 410. The harder the unit works the more it's drawing refrigerant and I believe it's gumming up. And my electric bill has dramatically increased since the install for a more energy efficient unit then my old one. Not happy at all.

they don't sound like they are very reputable.

I have no idea what your weather is like there. In south. We have hot summers with high humidity. My home stays quite comfortable.
Sound like you got a bad install.
No telling what the subcooling /superheat is.
Probably just charged it beer can cold ! LOL

 

[Richard]

Here's a bit of an update.

I had a guy out yesterday to review & prepare a quote for me (not heard back yet)

His main brand is York. Said he put one in his personal home. Said his second brand is Lennox.

Went on to say the variable speed scrolls are more expensive than the traditional type. Said I'd be better off just staying with the simple type, save the money and 20 years later, update again.

Verses, paying more upfront for the fancier system, higher (potential) repair costs if some internal board goes bad (said the board is something like $800 to fix....controller board?)

Anyway, said that he works more on the KISS principle and prefers to keep things on the simple side.

Said they would pressurize the line with nitrogen to make sure it can hold pressure. If it has a leak, you will hear it hiss (I guess unless it's buried in a wall) Once the pressure test is done and passes, they do a vacume test and leave it for 24 hours to see if it holds. If it does, we know the original lines are good and they do the install. If the lines fail, I have choices to make (rip out drywall for re-installation or run lines up side of house to attic...)

He went on to say that I could add a (mini?) split unit in the middle floor (main floor) where the wife is wanting to add a room. The split unit could be directed to that room and an adjacent room (no room in walls to run tubing to other rooms) This "mini split" is one of those wall mounted things. I don't know proper name.

He kind of downplayed my mention of geo-thermal as too expensive and never recouping the costs. I would be able to do a buried system or, I THINK I could do a open system but would have to drill another well to dump the waste in.

I'm leaning away from the geo-thermal.... leaning away from that split unit thing.... probably just replace what I have....but.... his logic was intersting from the perspective of buying a lower expense system that is easier to maintain (kind of like the engines of the 70's before all that smog stuff was added into the engine compartment)

Last, I think he said (it was an estimate) that my current Coleman system (1 1/2 ton upstairs, 2 ton for main/lower floors) was around 10 SEER and the new units are around (I think he said) 15/18 SEER


Question: In lay terms, if my current system is in fact, a 10 SEER and a new unit is say, 15 SEER, what does that mean to me in a practical sense? I don't understand a SEER nor what value a single unit of measure means as far as an advantage.

 

[BrokeFarmerJohn]

I just had an American Standard installed last summer by a reputable company. I'm not happy with it. Day one the TXV valve was defective. They replaced the whole indoor coil. But the unit struggles to cool in hot weather. I've had them out numerous times to check it and it always falls within manufacture specs they tell me. So now I'll wait til a hot hot day and have them test it. Because that's when it shows its problem. I truly believe the R22 wasn't flushed well enough and is mixing with the 410. The harder the unit works the more it's drawing refrigerant and I believe it's gumming up. And my electric bill has dramatically increased since the install for a more energy efficient unit then my old one. Not happy at all.

Sounds like they over heated the TXV during install, a TXV valve can be bad from factory but it's rare, usually installer error.

They didn't replace the lineset? Rarely would I use an existing lineset, only reason for that would be it runs in a wall or something hard to get to. If the old lineset was 1/4 and 1/2in that would dramatically choke a system down needing 3/8 3/4in lineset.

And if the R22 wasn't flushed properly and a trace about mixes with 410A it creates an acid and will trash a system in as little as a couple years. I really doubt someone would be that careless with an existing lineset.

 

[BrokeFarmerJohn]

Here's a bit of an update.

I had a guy out yesterday to review & prepare a quote for me (not heard back yet)

His main brand is York. Said he put one in his personal home. Said his second brand is Lennox.

Went on to say the variable speed scrolls are more expensive than the traditional type. Said I'd be better off just staying with the simple type, save the money and 20 years later, update again.

Verses, paying more upfront for the fancier system, higher (potential) repair costs if some internal board goes bad (said the board is something like $800 to fix....controller board?)

Anyway, said that he works more on the KISS principle and prefers to keep things on the simple side.

Said they would pressurize the line with nitrogen to make sure it can hold pressure. If it has a leak, you will hear it hiss (I guess unless it's buried in a wall) Once the pressure test is done and passes, they do a vacume test and leave it for 24 hours to see if it holds. If it does, we know the original lines are good and they do the install. If the lines fail, I have choices to make (rip out drywall for re-installation or run lines up side of house to attic...)

He went on to say that I could add a (mini?) split unit in the middle floor (main floor) where the wife is wanting to add a room. The split unit could be directed to that room and an adjacent room (no room in walls to run tubing to other rooms) This "mini split" is one of those wall mounted things. I don't know proper name.

He kind of downplayed my mention of geo-thermal as too expensive and never recouping the costs. I would be able to do a buried system or, I THINK I could do a open system but would have to drill another well to dump the waste in.

I'm leaning away from the geo-thermal.... leaning away from that split unit thing.... probably just replace what I have....but.... his logic was intersting from the perspective of buying a lower expense system that is easier to maintain (kind of like the engines of the 70's before all that smog stuff was added into the engine compartment)

Last, I think he said (it was an estimate) that my current Coleman system (1 1/2 ton upstairs, 2 ton for main/lower floors) was around 10 SEER and the new units are around (I think he said) 15/18 SEER


Question: In lay terms, if my current system is in fact, a 10 SEER and a new unit is say, 15 SEER, what does that mean to me in a practical sense? I don't understand a SEER nor what value a single unit of measure means as far as an advantage.

First off with instillation that's kinda odd a company leaves the system for 24h, it's not a bad thing though, as a guy who knows how to install, I like that, it tells me either they chose quality over speed or they have made a lot of mistakes in the past and do it as a fool proof method, just like when Walmart changes tires they have a policy of driving you car around the parking lot in a figure 8 to make sure the wheels won't fall off when you get the car back. Lol

When I install, I flow nitrogen in the system while brazing, that's the most important step, nitrogen is a inert gas and if you don't flow a trace amount of nitrogen the inside of the copper will be caked with black flaky stuff than can create massive issues down the road.

Brazing with Nitrogen vs. Brazing without Nitrogen - YouTube

After install I do a pressure test with nitrogen, if there are no major leaks at 50psi I bump it up to 70psi and do a bubble test, if I get no bubbles I go up to 150psi and go around again with bubbles, if no bubbles are found I will release the pressure to a trace amount and hook the vacuum pump up and let that run while I Finnish the install.

If the micron gauge doesn't get below 500 microns I know there is a leak somewhere, if I pull it down to 200-450 microns I'm satisfied, and will shut things down and charge the system using a scale and virgin refrigerant.

On a new system I have had luck leak checking with a vacuum with the condenser isolated, on old stuff like a indoor coil change, if you pull a vacuum too fast refrigerant and non condensables trapped in the oil will freeze, as they thaw out it raises your pressure up and can drive you nuts lol, for that reason I normally leave 150psi of nitrogen in the system overnight, nitrogen will absorb any moisture in the system also, if I come back the next day and it's at 150psi I know I'm good but have to wait to pull another vacuum which is time consuming.

• I will add and edit later, off to work

 

[General Lee]

Sounds like they over heated the TXV during install, a TXV valve can be bad from factory but it's rare, usually installer error.

They didn't replace the lineset? Rarely would I use an existing lineset, only reason for that would be it runs in a wall or something hard to get to. If the old lineset was 1/4 and 1/2in that would dramatically choke a system down needing 3/8 3/4in lineset.

And if the R22 wasn't flushed properly and a trace about mixes with 410A it creates an acid and will trash a system in as little as a couple years. I really doubt someone would be that careless with an existing lineset.

They said they normally don't replace the lineset (I asked for replacement but I would be charged extra). I wish I had the lineset replaced now. The Manufacturer of my new unit allows reuse of the old lineset as long as its flushed and no leaks. They flushed and tested it. I watched them do it and they explained everything. Line set is the correct size for the system, I brought that up as well. I've had them out numerous times checking these things over.

This company has a good reputation in the community. I trust they will make it right. They stand behind their work. The system has had limited use because it was installed towards the end of the cooling season and I chose to use my oil heat vs the heat pump for winter, so I'll see how it performs this summer.

 

[boggen]

watch youtube videos of install and repairs of each compenent and full systems.

they can be major freaking hack jobs. *hostillity*. begin of this year had central gas furnace, A Coil, filter, inside home replaced with a/c condenser outside replaced. along with line set, and the newer furnaces that you can use pvc pipe with for exhaust. end up having to goto court to get issues resolved. complete and udder hack job.

• eletrical not in conduit inside or outside, eletrical switch not to code (near enough furnace), not enough supports. wire staple through one of the 110v wiring.
• LP copper gas line hung with single plastic zip tie, resting on numerous things. vs not provinding proper support, gas valve was not near furnace, no drip leg, no unions installed.
• the line set, not properly supported, used water line soldering, did not wrap stuff up in wet rags or like when soldering to protect stuff from heat when soldering.
• filter was manufacture defect, filter would not slide down.
• wrong seer a/c condenser, gave smaller than what it was suppose to be.
• only ran exhaust vent outside and not intake air pipe to the outside for furnace, ran them in area told and agreed to stay away from.
• furnace was suppose to be a double stage gas furnace, only got single stage,
• suppose to be blower being variable speed, techincially it is, but requires adjusting wires each time at the circuit board.

gas hot water heater started leaking couple days before installation asked for one to be installed. wrong size hot water heater, no drip leg, used tape rated for water only, and not LP gas approved tape on threads. had hot water and cold water connections backwards.

my mom came over while stuff was being put in while i was else were, she thought it all looked ok, till i got back home. that is when the nightmare began. crock that went right to day of court then installer finally decided to settle out of court. a couple hours before schedule.

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i had to learn the quick and hard way....and quickly within a couple weeks. to deal with court doings.

• get the installation manual/S for the equipment and read over it yourself page for page per each manual.
• make sure everything is in writing.
• verify permits yourself, verify licenses they have as well
• go through youtube videos.
• do not let them just pull seer ratings, and sizing numbers off old equipment, make sure they do a load calculation on home for heating/cooling. along with checking were vents are (in/out) throughout the rooms of home.
• be annoying as possible during installation and watch them. making sure they are not messing up. do not buy what they selling out of there mouths.
• if you do need permits, make sure you follow up with inspection, and do not write final payment till after inspection clears.
• do not trust any given website of were you might of have found installer. verify it yourself.
• also verify other folks installations. not just word of mouth but actually contacting them.

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do your home work. as if you were going to do a DIY installation. so you have an idea of what to look for and how it most likely be installed.

watching youtube videos of various hackjobs, installation is a big thing. and can cripple a system quickly.

installers and manufactures have a fairly nice setup going. and buying anything online, or through wholesaler and not being approved by manufacture normally means no warrenty coverage for most stuff. but from what i have seen it is pretty big scam.

i realize there are good folks, but the recent installation rubbed me the wrong way.

 

[BrokeFarmerJohn]

If you google HVAC hack jobs, you can not even imagine some of the crap people do, they have to be pretty cleaver in order the screw up that badly lol.

I agree with overlooking the installation but I don't agree with bugging the installers or stopping them every two seconds to ask them why there doing what there doing.

I have been on the receiving end of that, on diagnostics and service I don't mind it, it kinda helps me think threw a problem by explaining the sequence of operations out loud and going threw everything with a meter but on installs that would just slow me down. I don't mind people observing but some guys don't even like that. I worked for a HVAC company where one of the guys didn't like people following him and watching over his shoulder. It made him uncomfortable and he was more accident prone worrying about being on a stage, he was fine by himself in his own little world and did a good job, put him in a room with a couple of guys just focusing on him and he looked like a rookie.

As far as sizing equipment, the salesman does that, not many installers or techs are sharp at sizing equipment.

An experienced salesman will size a house correctly, its not difficult usually, it gets tricky with large open floor plans with 2 story high ceilings, house looks great but is a nightmare to heat and cool sometimes, that's where you need multiple systems and a basic zoning program.

 

[BrokeFarmerJohn]

They said they normally don't replace the lineset (I asked for replacement but I would be charged extra). I wish I had the lineset replaced now. The Manufacturer of my new unit allows reuse of the old lineset as long as its flushed and no leaks. They flushed and tested it. I watched them do it and they explained everything. Line set is the correct size for the system, I brought that up as well. I've had them out numerous times checking these things over.

This company has a good reputation in the community. I trust they will make it right. They stand behind their work. The system has had limited use because it was installed towards the end of the cooling season and I chose to use my oil heat vs the heat pump for winter, so I'll see how it performs this summer.

Not all companies are the same and some chose to do things differently, I was trained to always replace the lineset, it's just always been a given for me but I have had to flush a good amount of linesets in my day, honestly in many situations the old lineset is just fine and is usually a heavier copper than what you can buy today, if it's rewrapped with insulation and properly pressure tested, I wouldn't get hung up on that as a issue of why the new system doesn't work.

I just personally like the look of a new system with a new lineset, all the insulation on the lineset is new ext. it's prob $300-$500 more for a new lineset and T-stat wire so there is a savings there but it's important the insulation be replaced on the suction line (big line) if it's in bad shape.

If your registers are blowing around 55 degree air and your return is 70-75 your in good shape, you always want around a 20 degree drop with an A/C.