Can you deduct tongue weight if you are over axle capacity?

[square1]

What LD1 said in conjunction with Stimw's FYI
Remember, though in your case it doesn't appear to be an issue, that weight doesn't magically disappear. It's being placed on the (mostly rear) truck axle(s).

 

[LD1]

A trailer rated for 3500lbs has already considered part of that weight will be on the tongue. .

Not really. Unless the trailer "rating" exceeds the axle capacity.

Most small trailers, 3.5k, 7k, 10k, etc. That rating is simply the sum of the axles ratings.

Most trailers are built as such that the axles are the limiting factor. Take a 10k trailer that weighs 3500#. Most think you can only put 6500# on it. Not true. Whatever weight the truck carries is weight that the trailer axle is not.

You can load your trailer until the axle reached it's rating, period. Is it wise to do that with an extreme tongue heavy load....don't know. Depends on the trailer. Unfortunately, I haven't ever seen a trailer that lists a Max tongue weight spec? So putting 4k on the nose of a 3.5k landscape trailer with 2x2 or 2x3 angle tongue.... probably not smart. Heavy built trailer with 4" channel tongue...probably not an issue. Again, just depends on the trailer.

And some trailers do factor in tongue ratings. My gooseneck has a pair of 11.2k axles. So one would think 22.4k would be it. Nope, the gvwr clearly shows 29,xxx. Obviously that would be assuming 6500# pin weight on the max load since axles cannot exceed 11.2k a piece. So I would have no worries about loading my trailer as tongue heavy as the truck can handle. Cause it tells me clearly that the trailer can have more weight on the pin than the truck can legally handle.

 

[square1]

And getting into splitting frog hairs, the unsprung weight, i.e. tires, axles themselves don't count against over loading an axle. They do however count against weight per axle on the scale.

 

[Industrial Toys]

I guess if I got stopped in Barrie, that's only an hour away. A hassle, but not as bad as getting stopped in Minnesota!

I guess I will get my truck safetyed (sp?) get the sticker and borrow a tandem trailer.

Some time ago I saw a GMC 2500 in the middle of an intersection, full of firewood and one of the axle shafts sticking a couple of feet out the side. Talk about embarrassing!

 

[FatTire]

And some trailers do factor in tongue ratings. My gooseneck has a pair of 11.2k axles. So one would think 22.4k would be it. Nope, the gvwr clearly shows 29,xxx. Obviously that would be assuming 6500# pin weight on the max load since axles cannot exceed 11.2k a piece. So I would have no worries about loading my trailer as tongue heavy as the truck can handle. Cause it tells me clearly that the trailer can have more weight on the pin than the truck can legally handle.

That's how PJ labels their goosenecks. If you have a pair of 7000 lb axles, they assume not less than 12% on the hitch, and label at 15,600. If your truck's GVWR is over 10k, they'll label it lower if you want to stay under 26k combined. That trick works only if the trailer has never been registered.

 

[bdog]

So if it's calculated based on the weight IN the trailer and not on the axles, how do they know how much weight is in the trailer if you get stopped?
Do they measure the tongue weight?

No not directly. I haul commercially and have gone through many scales. They weigh each axle individually. You will be getting tickets if you are over your registered weight, over any axle rating, or over any tire rating. So in your case you have a 3,500 pound trailer axle and thus can not have over 3,500 pounds on it. Any tongue weight will show up on your rear pickup axle. They don't know or really care how much actual weight is on the trailer they just will make sure the trailer axle and the tow vehicle are not overloaded.

All that being said as others mentioned your trailer probably weighs close to 1,000 lb already empty so you are talking about a huge amount of tongue weight to keep the axle legal. The trailer tongue, coupler, and even hitch on your truck may not be rated for that much load. Most pickup hitches are only rated for 1,000 lbs or less vertical load.

 

[crazyal]

If you have a trailer that you can borrow then that would be the best option. If not, and you say the trailer itself is very beefy, then you could get away with replacing the axle, wheels, and springs. Not sure if it would be worth it for one trip. But if you were forced to rent something it could be a tempting option. As for what, if any laws you break, that I couldn't tell you.

 

[RickB]

Some states if not all require trailer brakes on trailers over 3000 lbs. So even if you are within the limits of the trailer you are still in violation because of no trailer brakes.

Your 3500 lbs trailer axle will have a weight rating set by the axle manufacturer of 3750 lbs. On some single axle trailer the center bow of the axle will hit the floor of the trailer before you reach the maximum payload of the axle so the trailer itself will cause the axle to bow more than it should with the weight that is on it.

Axle 'bow' flattens as the load increases. TorFlex axle beams don't move up and down like leaf spring axles.

 

[Industrial Toys]

It is a very heavy galvanized trailer that my friend built. Hes in his 50s and has probably built hundreds from the age of 10 or so. I saw a 6000# axle with brakes on sale at Princess Auto, and asked my friend if I could put that under his trailer which hasn't even seen the road yet. That's when I found out his axle was torflex, so that was the end of that.

I spoke with another friend who has owned and used a lot of trailers. He kind of got mad at me, when I suggested the heavy tongue weight. I guess, that doesn't tow well. I don't know. I personally hate pulling a trailer.

 

[aczlan]

Do you have something like U-Haul in Canada that rents trailers. They normally have surge brakes so no controller needed.

That is what I would do. That way you have them to support you if you have a failure on the road.

Aaron Z

 

[BLSXJ]

HE IS IN ONTARIO CANADA...

any pick up truck is considered a "commercial vehicle", it doesn't matter if its for personal use or commercial (for this argument)

16 hours north from Toronto... thunder bay? drive up empty, rent a uhaul tdm axle, and you'll be set, no borrowing. its just the way to do it.

PS with the toys you have listed in your signature/profile.... its time you get a yellow sticker

 

[coldsteelva]

Can you provide some insight into what this 'Yellow Sticker' is? Is that a general term for a safety inspection?

 

[GLyford]

1300 lbs on a bumper pull can have your front end steering very light, maybe even off the ground unless you have a weight distributing hitch. It also removes a lot of effectiveness from your front brakes (can slide easier with less weight on them) making it easier to slide/skid in unintended directions. All of this is worse when wet. This is usually far more "pucker" than I want to put up with for more than a few minutes, never mind for driving hours on end.

 

[Industrial Toys]

I don't have much money, relatively speaking. So I try not to piss away my money, preferring to save it for larger things, like this chipper. And, I certainly don't like giving money to the government who sees fit to simply give it away. I just don't need to move my STUFF often enough to justify all the expense of moving heavy stuff legally.

The Yellow window sticker is an indication of annual safety. Same thing on the trailer.

 

[LD1]

1300 lbs on a bumper pull can have your front end steering very light, maybe even off the ground unless you have a weight distributing hitch. It also removes a lot of effectiveness from your front brakes (can slide easier with less weight on them) making it easier to slide/skid in unintended directions. All of this is worse when wet. This is usually far more "pucker" than I want to put up with for more than a few minutes, never mind for driving hours on end.

1300# and 4' behind the rear axle....lifting the front axle of a 7000# truck up that is 10-11' forward, with a diesel engine sitting atop it.....not likely at all. Probably wouldn't even effect steering and breaking. With that diesel, the front end would probably like the 400-500# less it has to carry.

 

[GLyford]

Sorry, missed the diesel bit. Carry on...

 

[ovrszd]

1300# and 4' behind the rear axle....lifting the front axle of a 7000# truck up that is 10-11' forward, with a diesel engine sitting atop it.....not likely at all. Probably wouldn't even effect steering and breaking. With that diesel, the front end would probably like the 400-500# less it has to carry.

When loading my GN trailer more tongue weight simply lowers the rear with minimal lift of the front. Might not have the same result with a bumper hitch.

Driveability and ride suffer dramatically if I don't properly balance the load.

 

[aczlan]

When loading my GN trailer more tongue weight simply lowers the rear with minimal lift of the front. Might not have the same result with a bumper hitch.

Driveability and ride suffer dramatically if I don't properly balance the load.

Your GN puts the weight pretty much right on or in front of the rear axle, so it will add load to both axles. A bumper hitch is well behind the axle and will unload the front axle.

Aaron Z

 

[ovrszd]

Your GN puts the weight pretty much right on or in front of the rear axle, so it will add load to both axles. A bumper hitch is well behind the axle and will unload the front axle.

Aaron Z

Yep. Just trying to gently suggest that.

With either handling and ride change dramatically depending on where trailer load is placed.

 

[LD1]

Yep. No question and no argument from me that a bumper pull does take weight off the front. But it's crazy the number of times I hear people say things like getting the front end too light, wheels off the ground, etc. People just don't understand weights and levers that make such crazy notions.

A standard wheelbase is usually somewhere around 135". Rear axle to ball, usually about 45". (3:1 ratio).

So 1300# on the ball is gonna take about 430# off a front end that's probably sitting at 4300. A mere 10%

Or in on the words, even if a light gasser with only 3500 pounds over the front, it would take OVER 10,000# on the ball to make the front end airborne.

So anytime I hear people make these notions, it just makes me roll my eyes.