Trenching water lines pex vs. poly vs.soil with no rock vs. lots of rocks

[Birdhunter1]

I live in Southern Illinois, waterlines are at least 3' deep around here. When I built my place I had to run water about 2000' from a 6" main at the road. I had an option of a 3/4" tap or pay more for a 1" tap.
A plumber friend of mine at the time suggested the 1" tap and run 1 1/2" pipe the distance and reduce to 1" before coming into the house and into my shop. From the 1 1/2" line I have less than 50' reduced to 1" at each building (I literally ran 1 1/2" till I ran out of it and then reduce to 1"). All of this is PVC and I have never experienced a loss of pressure or volume (aside from when the water district lost a main at one time) or had bad tasting 'stale' water from sitting in the line.

The new barn I just built for my horse and hay storage I ran a 3/4" PEX line to it that is 3-4' deep and about 120' long. It comes off of a 1" line and I have no volume or pressure at this hydrant.


If I could have done my long run from the road in PEX I would have, but running PEX that far was way out of price range from PVC.

 

[Deere Dude]

It depends on the water in your locale, we started using pex about 20 years ago here. Best thing since sliced bread, all brass fittings no apparent problems, that continued for many years. But in the past 6 years we have had to replace lots of these brass fittings that were being eaten up from the inside out. Not something most of the plumbers in our area were expecting to happen. In MS with softer water I would expect the brass fittings to last forever.

If you look into the poly the cts sizes have the same dimensions od and id as pex tubing sizes. This will not work with pipe ips sizes but in large markets both should be available. This should reduce the cost of lines since poly is less expensive than pex.

Moved to S Central Tennessee and to my surprise PEX is new to the area. Copper pipe and fittings do not last so everything seems to be CPVC which I do not like at all.. Any chance I have I replace CPVC with PEX and hope the brass fittings don't rot out.

 

[52wej]

A lot of good information on here. I ran water and sewer utilities for more than 25 years and have seen most of the problems mentioned. If you are in an area with relatively soft water,like here in Central VA almost any brass or copper fitting will corrode over a long period of time. Well water is usually worse than the water from a utility because regulations require utilities to add anti corrosion chemicals. As far as going to a 3/4 versus 1" meter be aware that the flow restriction is primarily from line size not at the meter. Also many "3/4"" meters actually only have a 5/8" opening yet will still allow 10 to 15 gpm flow depending upon the system pressure. House fittings are designed to operate on a 40 to 80 psi range. Many utilities have line pressures easily greater than 100psi. So it is important to have a pressure reducing valve in the system, preferably just before the final point of use. The key question is how far is the meter from the point of use? Anything > 1 to 200 feet you should use a large line as has been mentioned. PEX fittings - at least the new PEX plastic fittings are very durable. Under no circumstance ever use a galvanized or nylon fitting. You will replace them before too long. I have had good success with SS fittings, not cheap but they last. As others have said, this is a lot of work and you want to do it right the first time. W. Jones

 

[TSO]

I apologize in advance for hijacking the thread but i have a question: i need to run water (and gas, cable, phone) to my shop. About 175 ft. Shop has footing/foundation so i can't enter the structure underground. I'm in Michigan, i believe 42" depth for water lines.

Soooooooo... I'm likely running the water to the shop in 1" poly. What's the best way to bring the water line into the structure? Would it work to shield the line in larger PVC? Would that buffer be enough to prevent freezing? What if i double walled the PVC?

Meaning, put the 1" poly into a 2" PVC line, then into a 3" PVC line, elbowed into the structure.... ?


Thanks in advance

 

[Birdhunter1]

Bust up a section of concrete inside where you want the water to come in, dig down along your footing/foundation to where your line will comein and pour a new section of concrete after refilling with rock. This can all be done with a post hold digger in a 4' by 2' square easily.

 

[TSO]

Bust up a section of concrete inside where you want the water to come in, dig down along your footing/foundation to where your line will comein and pour a new section of concrete after refilling with rock. This can all be done with a post hold digger in a 4' by 2' square easily.

Unfortunately, that's not gonna happen... That section of cement is extremely thick. My footing is almost 20" thick there, And the wall is built on top of it. Gonna have to be another way. I neglected to think ahead and bury water, gas, and utility line (wide conduit) when i poured it.

 

[Deere Dude]

A lot of good information on here. I ran water and sewer utilities for more than 25 years and have seen most of the problems mentioned. If you are in an area with relatively soft water,like here in Central VA almost any brass or copper fitting will corrode over a long period of time. Well water is usually worse than the water from a utility because regulations require utilities to add anti corrosion chemicals. ... PEX fittings - at least the new PEX plastic fittings are very durable. ... I have had good success with SS fittings, not cheap but they last. As others have said, this is a lot of work and you want to do it right the first time. W. Jones

I must be in a soft water area because nobody uses copper because it rots out...sucks.

I had to change some CPVC because of leaks and use PEX and brass fittings wich works pretty good. In your estimation should I be very concerned with those brass fittings and what would an alternative be?

 

[Birdhunter1]

I would agree with you but I've worked in enough industrial places to know that a 1" hole in a 20" thick chunk of concrete is doable.

However, dig under the footing both inside and out and use a pressure washer to jet a hole under the footing to slip a 3/4" pex line into your shop, refill hole with rock and pour a new concrete at the surface. The more I think about it if you can chop a hole big enough for a 10 or 12" auger to auger a hole inside your shop then jet it under the footing... run a pull string and pull your pipe through up and out of the hole (one person feeding pipe from the outside and one person inside pulling. This is very doable. one bag of cement, half of a 5 gallon bucket of rock, half of the same bucket of sand and you would have concrete left over.

For what it's worth I did put my water in roughly the same footing and foundation with a slab and if I have to replace it someday I will do the above mentioned method.

 

[Raspy]

I apologize in advance for hijacking the thread but i have a question: i need to run water (and gas, cable, phone) to my shop. About 175 ft. Shop has footing/foundation so i can't enter the structure underground. I'm in Michigan, i believe 42" depth for water lines.

Soooooooo... I'm likely running the water to the shop in 1" poly. What's the best way to bring the water line into the structure? Would it work to shield the line in larger PVC? Would that buffer be enough to prevent freezing? What if i double walled the PVC?

Meaning, put the 1" poly into a 2" PVC line, then into a 3" PVC line, elbowed into the structure.... ?


Thanks in advance

I would never simply "bust out" a section of the concrete. How crude. Drill through it and come up from below. Even a 20" thick slab, with a 42" trench depth will work out about right. That is what a backhoe is for. Don't bring the line up in the wall, but in the room close to the wall to avoid freezing.

I ran my house feed poly pipe through long radius (very long radius) electrical PVC 90s that are used for underground electrical service lines, and up into the house. 1" poly in 2' PVC, if I remember correctly. The 90s have a 36" radius. I can pull out the poly anytime I wish, if needed, and slip another line in. Mine comes from my pump house and runs for about 60' through PVC before entering the garage to a distribution manifold where it is distributed to various places in the house and laundry.

This method will prevent possible freezing and mechanical damage during installation.

Poly is excellent pipe that is completely UV resistant and approved for drinking water. Very good stuff. It just can't be used on hot water lines. Get the "160 PSI" type and not the irrigation type. On mine, I ran all the PVC first and then slid the poly through it afterwards.

 

[52wej]

Deere, the brass will last longer than the copper but it too will corrode over a long period of time. Truth is no one knows exactly how long the pex pipe and pex fittings will last. I just did some modifications on pex plumbing in my family's home that had brass fittings 20 years old and while there was some corrosion in the brass there was still a lot of life left in it. The pipe was in good condition. I have cpvc pipe in my home that is 35 years old and still quite serviceable, though it is getting a bit stiffer. Copper pipe rots out in our water also…..often in less than 10 years. W Jones