liens

[Capricious]

I will be contacting a lawyer . Thought I was smarter than getting myself into a situation like this. Honest people always get screwed.

That would be my course of action.

Of course, the lawyer is going to cost you (I am currently a plaintiff paying a lawyer on an unrelated matter, so I know.)

I think the best you can hope for is a negotiated settlement with Deere.

Can you track down the seller, and does he have any assets (land, bank accounts, crops, salary)?

Did you find any other UCC filings on the guy?

Check with the county court house as well.

 

[Capricious]

OMG, as the kids say (or text). In my most humble of opinions you are barking up the wrong tree. Loophole? Heck, it's extremely common contract law! How can "the people making the loan" protect their collateral? Want to have someone visit your farm every week and check to make sure the combine and hay wagon are still there? How much more are you willing to pay in interest for that?
"Private ownership" only occurs after a loan is paid off. The seller and only the seller, is the bad guy here, as he sold something that does not belong to him. Would you buy a $20K car without a clear title? Of course not. And, as pointed out, there is an easy way to find out if an expensive item has a lien on it. (Dealer inventory is checked by the bank, BTW, but it's easy: it's all in one place, or the dealer owes the bank!)

I agree with the sentiment of your position; that Deere did everything they were supposed to do to protect their security interest in the machine.

It is, however, a very cumbersome process for an individual to determine if a particular asset is someone's security, lacking a title with a very visible lien notice,
such as would be the case with an automobile or a truck.

Perhaps tractors should be titled, as with cars? Then the lien would be recorded right on the face of the title?

Of course, there are many who believe that the less government intervention, the better. Maybe me included.

 

[CincyFlyer]

I agree with the sentiment of your position; that Deere did everything they were supposed to do to protect their security interest in the machine.

It is, however, a very cumbersome process for an individual to determine if a particular asset is someone's security, lacking a title with a very visible lien notice,
such as would be the case with an automobile or a truck.

Perhaps tractors should be titled, as with cars? Then the lien would be recorded right on the face of the title?

Of course, there are many who believe that the less government intervention, the better. Maybe me included.

That's the conundrum. Is it encumbered, is it stolen, is the seller authorized to sell it? I was actually surprised when I learned that these weren't titled, but as you mention, do we really want to invite more government "help"?
But in the past, when I've purchased certain pricey items, I've always asked for a bill of sale that specifically states that the object being purchases is not encumbered; I've also done the same selling items.

 

[Capricious]

That's the conundrum. Is it encumbered, is it stolen, is the seller authorized to sell it? I was actually surprised when I learned that these weren't titled, but as you mention, do we really want to invite more government "help"?
But in the past, when I've purchased certain pricey items, I've always asked for a bill of sale that specifically states that the object being purchases is not encumbered; I've also done the same selling items.

The poster with the problem stated that the seller told him the tractor was free of any liens.

I suppose if someone is going to lie, they are not going to be too concerned about signing their name to that lie on a bill of sale.

When I bought my (first?) used tractor (3) years ago, this whole situation was of concern to me, as there is no shortage of
dishonest people out there, which is why I started this thread (3) years ago.

Although the seller of tractor may not have any assets to go after, at least one can make this a criminal matter, and get some
(non-monetary) satisfaction from that.

Unrelated to this specific issue: Most tractor dealers "floor plan" their inventory, meaning they borrow the money to buy the tractors
they have in stock. If I buy a new tractor from the dealer, and the dealer does not pay whomever financed his purchase of the tractor,
what is my liability?

 

[DavesTractor]

Unrelated to this specific issue: Most tractor dealers "floor plan" their inventory, meaning they borrow the money to buy the tractors
they have in stock. If I buy a new tractor from the dealer, and the dealer does not pay whomever financed his purchase of the tractor,
what is my liability?

You would not be liable in this floor plan situation.

As to your other comment on an unscrupulous seller being willing to sign their name to a bill of sale saying it is unencumbered I agree with you that a crook would do that in a heartbeat. Those on this thread saying they always get a bill of sale saying it is free and clear, they should know that signature is only good if the signer is honest. Yes it is a reasonable step, but it will not keep JD Finance from picking up the tractor.

As to registering tractors like cars, it would solve this issue, but I hate to see the government get involved in yet another aspect of our lives.

 

[CincyFlyer]

The poster with the problem stated that the seller told him the tractor was free of any liens.

I suppose if someone is going to lie, they are not going to be too concerned about signing their name to that lie on a bill of sale.

When I bought my (first?) used tractor (3) years ago, this whole situation was of concern to me, as there is no shortage of
dishonest people out there, which is why I started this thread (3) years ago.

Although the seller of tractor may not have any assets to go after, at least one can make this a criminal matter, and get some
(non-monetary) satisfaction from that.

Unrelated to this specific issue: Most tractor dealers "floor plan" their inventory, meaning they borrow the money to buy the tractors
they have in stock. If I buy a new tractor from the dealer, and the dealer does not pay whomever financed his purchase of the tractor,
what is my liability?

The point of having someone sign a bill of sale stating that the tractor is unencumbered is to put them in jeopardy of arrest.

 

[DavesTractor]

The point of having someone sign a bill of sale stating that the tractor is unencumbered is to put them in jeopardy of arrest.

I think they would be in jeopardy of arrest anyway? But I do see that it would be somewhat of a valuable document to have in front of a judge or jury. I don't know much about the criminal law concerning this sort of transaction. Civilly, getting a judgment against the seller would be easy enough I think. Getting paid back is an entirely different matter.

I'd be chasing down the seller and finding if he has any assets.

 

[Capricious]

The point of having someone sign a bill of sale stating that the tractor is unencumbered is to put them in jeopardy of arrest.

I think they are guilty of fraud if they sell a machine without the security interest released, whether or not the bill of sale so states. Certainly Deere could have
the prior owner charged with fraud, and I think the buyer could have the seller charged with fraud as well.

The seller is not going to escape such charges just because the bill of sale did not explicitly say "no liens."

The issue is whether anyone will push the prosecuting attorney to take up the matter. Especially if the seller has left the area.

 

[MORRISONSTEEL]

Yep, these deals suck. I remember when dealers started to collect ss info on cash deals with trades and man o man the whining and complaining about providing personal info so that a true lein search can be completed was staggering...still is today. But w/out that private info it can be nearly impossible to find blanket lein info....buyer beware. As far as the op going forward Deere will be more flexible in the time range to sort something out if the unit in question was sitting on his local dealers lot, then JD finance won't be as worried about collecting the machine quite as quickly. They can actually be quite flexible but I suppose that just like anything else once the lawyers are involved then reasonable people can't communicate any longer. Ultimately the recourse for this note is on the dealer if the tractor can not be located or is deemed to difficult to get, then the dealer who processed the note will have to pay. This is also why a certain amount of dealers do not do 0 down notes as the recourse could kill a business if a whole bunch of notes go south on them.

 

[rScotty]

I think they would be in jeopardy of arrest anyway? But I do see that it would be somewhat of a valuable document to have in front of a judge or jury. I don't know much about the criminal law concerning this sort of transaction. Civilly, getting a judgment against the seller would be easy enough I think. Getting paid back is an entirely different matter.

I'd be chasing down the seller and finding if he has any assets.

Good idea; I'd be searching for the seller for sure.
And I'd do a second and a third check of all the paperwork that I got along with the transaction just to make sure that a bill of sale was included. Even though it might not be signed by everyone and even if it was it isn't proof positive, it would still serve if the seller couldn't be found.

Here's a thought: while the buyer still has possession and use of the tractor..... and before any formal court order has been issued that requires it's repossession.... would it hurt to simply put the tractor somewhere else for safekeeping?
That's one way to keep everyone concerned with the buyer's rights as well as their own interests.
rScotty