liens

[Capricious]

Good idea; I'd be searching for the seller for sure.
And I'd do a second and a third check of all the paperwork that I got along with the transaction just to make sure that a bill of sale was included. Even though it might not be signed by everyone and even if it was it isn't proof positive, it would still serve if the seller couldn't be found.

Here's a thought: while the buyer still has possession and use of the tractor..... and before any formal court order has been issued that requires it's repossession.... would it hurt to simply put the tractor somewhere else for safekeeping?
That's one way to keep everyone concerned with the buyer's rights as well as their own interests.
rScotty

".. would it hurt to simply put the tractor somewhere else for safekeeping?.."



Yes, I think it would hurt. I would NOT attempt to withhold the tractor from the lienholder if they are demanding it or demanding payment in the alternative.

One might try to negotiate a settlement of the lien at less than face value while one still has possession of the machine but if they are demanding the tractor one had better let them have it. I WOULD make them come and pick it up, but I would not hinder in any way.

 

[katoomed00]

If you title a used tractor like a car, you know the state will surely want taxes.
That's one of the main reasons for not titling a used dirt bike, atv and utv.

I agree with the sentiment of your position; that Deere did everything they were supposed to do to protect their security interest in the machine.

It is, however, a very cumbersome process for an individual to determine if a particular asset is someone's security, lacking a title with a very visible lien notice,
such as would be the case with an automobile or a truck.

Perhaps tractors should be titled, as with cars? Then the lien would be recorded right on the face of the title?

Of course, there are many who believe that the less government intervention, the better. Maybe me included.

 

[Capricious]

If you title a used tractor like a car, you know the state will surely want taxes.
That's one of the main reasons for not titling a used dirt bike, atv and utv.

It varies by state, but I think in most cases tractors and other ag equipment would normally be subject to sales tax and personal property tax but
in some states are there specific exemptions. Titling would not HAVE to change those exemptions, but it might draw attention to the exemptions which could
lead to pressure to change or eliminate the exemptions- sort of the "kicking the sleeping dog" thing.

 

[RandyT]

If you title a used tractor like a car, you know the state will surely want taxes.
That's one of the main reasons for not titling a used dirt bike, atv and utv.

Dirt bikes, atv's and utv's are titled in most states. the problem is the title never gets transferred in most cases from the original owner that purchased it from the dealer new.

 

[Steppenwolfe]

The point of having someone sign a bill of sale stating that the tractor is unencumbered is to put them in jeopardy of arrest.

Go back to my post... mine came from a lawyer...

 

[Code54]

Hear people on this site talk about selling tractors then paying off the loan 1 payment at a time until it is complete. Just feel this is wrong and if you sell something you need to FULLY own it. I believe having it titled would be worth while just to avoid the possible headaches and issues of someone not paying it off.

 

[Capricious]

Hear people on this site talk about selling tractors then paying off the loan 1 payment at a time until it is complete. Just feel this is wrong and if you sell something you need to FULLY own it. I believe having it titled would be worth while just to avoid the possible headaches and issues of someone not paying it off.

You don't have to "feel" this is wrong: It simply IS wrong:

If someone sells the asset which secures a loan, without first (or simultaneously) paying off the loan, that is certainly a violation of provisions in the loan paperwork they signed in order to get the loan, and that is almost certainly fraud. The lender could press charges, as could a buyer unaware of the existence of a lien.

 

[balzerja]

I registered the tractor soon after I bought it because there was a small amount of warranty time left. Deere knows exactly where the tractor is located. i'm trying to co-opereate with them. Looks like I'm going to be out the 27k i paid for it. Working on getting a lawyer now. With the Ucc financing statement filed, it kind of trumps everything else I'm told.

 

[Capricious]

I registered the tractor soon after I bought it because there was a small amount of warranty time left. Deere knows exactly where the tractor is located. i'm trying to co-opereate with them. Looks like I'm going to be out the 27k i paid for it. Working on getting a lawyer now. With the Ucc financing statement filed, it kind of trumps everything else I'm told.

One heck of a financial hit. I "THINK" it is deductible as a casualty loss, which would help a little.

Hopefully the seller has assets the attorney can go after.

 

[DavesTractor]

I registered the tractor soon after I bought it because there was a small amount of warranty time left. Deere knows exactly where the tractor is located. i'm trying to co-opereate with them. Looks like I'm going to be out the 27k i paid for it. Working on getting a lawyer now. With the Ucc financing statement filed, it kind of trumps everything else I'm told.

I'm sure not a lawyer, but if you registered it right after you bought it, then JD Finance in theory could have found their asset at that point. You never hid your ownership, and in fact registered it into their system. I think that is in your favor. That may have started the clock ticking on some sort of statute of limitations. This can get pretty complicated and I do not have the knowledge to debate it, but it is worth checking into. If JD does come and get the tractor, I would let them take it, but I would put them on notice that you are contesting their ownership and ask them to retain the tractor in safe storage at no charge to you as you contest this. The UCC filing may trump all of this, but I would for sure check with an attorney.

 

[Capricious]

I'm sure not a lawyer, but if you registered it right after you bought it, then JD Finance in theory could have found their asset at that point. You never hid your ownership, and in fact registered it into their system. I think that is in your favor. That may have started the clock ticking on some sort of statute of limitations. This can get pretty complicated and I do not have the knowledge to debate it, but it is worth checking into. If JD does come and get the tractor, I would let them take it, but I would put them on notice that you are contesting their ownership and ask them to retain the tractor in safe storage at no charge to you as you contest this. The UCC filing may trump all of this, but I would for sure check with an attorney.

I think they have (6) years:

SS 3-118. STATUTE OF LIMITATIONS. | UCC - Uniform Commercial Code | LII / Legal Information Institute

It is possible that state laws may differ.

 

[CincyFlyer]

I think they have (6) years:

SS 3-118. STATUTE OF LIMITATIONS. | UCC - Uniform Commercial Code | LII / Legal Information Institute

It is possible that state laws may differ.

Note that the six years mentioned is for the lien holder (say, JD) to take action (request payment or surrender of collateral) against the original purchaser. Once they do that, it's easy to get a judgement (whether you are JD or some guy who lost his garage down payment-another story), and that judgement is forever, at least in Ohio (and Kentucky and Indiana, I believe). Collectible? Maybe, maybe not. In the case of the tractor, the machine has some value, so JD will look for it. So if the tractor owner has a seven-year note, sells you his liened-upon tractor, and keeps paying the payments for several years, the "clock" doesn't start until he stops paying-thus missing a due date-and the lien-holder takes action. So, in theory, you could have a tractor for more than six years and still lose it (but at that point it's likely paid down to a point where you could pay it off with JD or whomever.)
I don't know if there's something similar to "title insurance" for a tractor, but it's something I would probably buy-of course, they'd do a UCC search first, which, it appears, we all should do for high-buck capital items. I do note that many states have searchable databases of UCC filings, perhaps all.

 

[DavesTractor]

Great input Capricious and CinciFlyer.

I am thinking that the original owner stopped making payments right away, and was in fact behind on payments when he "sold" it as think the loan balance is $37k. But even so, that won't get us beyond 6 years, and as mentioned that applies to the original purchaser. Seems the law is pretty clear on the original purchaser being obligated to this loan, but I do not know if there is any obscure way that the new purchaser, given enough time and with a purchase clearly made in good faith, can have a legal right to keep this tractor. Probably not, but worth checking.

 

[DavesTractor]

...another thought. If JD Finance had noticed the change in registration and put it together with a loan that was in arrears (assuming it was at that time) and did this promptly, both the new buyer and JD Finance themselves would have been in a much better position to track down the original owner. I'm not sure they had any obligation to do so however. But if I were the buyer I would make a fuss with JD and say, "hey I bought this thing in good faith, paid for it and quickly registered it in your system. Now years later you say you are coming to get it? You should have told me right away, and so forth. " Not sure if that has any legal legs, others may comment.

 

[Capricious]

It has already been alluded to, but I think it should be emphasized that Deere Financial is not the "bad guy" here- the seller of the tractor is. Unfortunately, there may be little possibility of collecting from him.


All of this worried me when I bought my junky little used tractor in 2014.

 

[John Fitzgerald]

Is it generally safe to buy a used tractor from a regular tractor dealer?

 

[Capricious]

Is it generally safe to buy a used tractor from a regular tractor dealer?

In regards to the status of legal title to the tractor, it is probably safer to buy from a dealer if for no other reason than the dealer
probably has "deeper pockets" if the deal should go bad.


Of course, the dealer will almost certainly charge more for the same tractor than a private seller would, just as with cars or trucks or about
anything else.

 

[Teachu2]

Is it generally safe to buy a used tractor from a regular tractor dealer?

Yes, as you have recourse against the dealer - assuming they haven't packed up and left the country.

 

[dfkrug]

Is it generally safe to buy a used tractor from a regular tractor dealer?

What I do when buying a used tractor is contact the nearest local authorized dealer of that
brand and give them the VIN. They can look it up and give you all sorts of info, including
whether or not it is in a "stolen database". That has worked for me with Kubota, but I am not
sure all brands do that.

An individual who legitimately owns a tractor should have some paperwork showing his
purchase. A used tractor dealer will have some paperwork, as they don't want to get
burned in this way either.

I would like to see tractor makers step up and issue titles for tractors and states to share
ownership info. That is happening more and more with offroad vehicles and it has helped
combat the stolen (and lien) problem. Sadly, states don't always share that info yet, so an
ATV stolen out of state can be re-titled in our state. ATV/UTV/dirt bike makers need to step up and
maintain stolen databases, as (some) tractor makers do.

 

[John Fitzgerald]

...another thought. If JD Finance had noticed the change in registration and put it together with a loan that was in arrears (assuming it was at that time) and did this promptly, both the new buyer and JD Finance themselves would have been in a much better position to track down the original owner. I'm not sure they had any obligation to do so however. But if I were the buyer I would make a fuss with JD and say, "hey I bought this thing in good faith, paid for it and quickly registered it in your system. Now years later you say you are coming to get it? You should have told me right away, and so forth. " Not sure if that has any legal legs, others may comment.

I wonder if the current owner would be off the hook if he had sold the tractor in good faith a year or two ago, and no longer knew to whom he sold it?