Mcormick starting issues

   / Mcormick starting issues #21  
where do you find temperature rated fuel, when I fuel my pickup the pump doesn't list a temperature rating,
when I order fuel I have to tell them if I want #2 or #1 if I want a blend I have to tell them so and what ratio
the fuel truck has multiple compartments and when they deliver is when it gets blended at what ever ratio I want
and I'm charge for so many gallons of #2 and so many gallons of #1 or kerosene.
Then if I want any anti-gel it's my responsibility to get it and add it. Or anything to increase the lubricity, it's my job.
 
   / Mcormick starting issues #22  
where do you find temperature rated fuel, when I fuel my pickup the pump doesn't list a temperature rating,
when I order fuel I have to tell them if I want #2 or #1 if I want a blend I have to tell them so and what ratio
the fuel truck has multiple compartments and when they deliver is when it gets blended at what ever ratio I want
and I'm charge for so many gallons of #2 and so many gallons of #1 or kerosene.
Then if I want any anti-gel it's my responsibility to get it and add it. Or anything to increase the lubricity, it's my job.
Generally around here we have what we call a winter blend. They will blend say 70-30 and stuf2f like the. I buy my fuel from an oil company that comes out and fills my barrel. I buy off road red dye ag fuel. I got hung up and bought some fuel at a station in town and it has caused me a nightmare of trouble. Generally you can ask your supplier how it is rated. They may tell you it is rated down to say zero or what ever. The navy made their diesels run on jp5 (jet fuel). The advantage is it won't gell in the cold and the navy can go any where in the world without cold weather problems and the only need one type of fuel.
 
   / Mcormick starting issues #23  
where do you find temperature rated fuel, when I fuel my pickup the pump doesn't list a temperature rating,
when I order fuel I have to tell them if I want #2 or #1 if I want a blend I have to tell them so and what ratio
the fuel truck has multiple compartments and when they deliver is when it gets blended at what ever ratio I want
and I'm charge for so many gallons of #2 and so many gallons of #1 or kerosene.
Then if I want any anti-gel it's my responsibility to get it and add it. Or anything to increase the lubricity, it's my job.

To answer you, please tolerate my ramblings because I think there is more to the diesel fuel story than most tractor or truck owners appreciate.
It is not just does it gel or not gel. Lubricate or not lubricate.

First the Kubota spec for fuel in my 2012 M7040

Fuel :
Cetane number of 45 minimum. Cetane number greater than 50 is preferred, especially for temperatures below
-20 ï½°C (-4 ï½°F) or elevations above 1500 m (5000 ft).
If diesel fuel with sulfur content greater than 0.5 % sulfur content is used, reduce the service interval for engine oil
and filter by 50 %.
DO NOT use diesel fuel with sulfur content greater than 1.0 %. (1.0%= 100 ppm)
Diesel fuels specified to EN 590 or ASTM D975 are recommended.

The sulfur in the fuel I buy is 8 ppm and the standard in Canada is not more than 15 ppm.

Material related to the ASTM D975 which is referred to in Kubota's fuel requirements

The cloud point of a diesel fuel is the temperature at which the amount of precipitated wax crystals becomes large enough to make the fuel appear cloudy or hazy. Wax may form because normal paraffins occur naturally in diesel fuel. As the temperature of the fuel is lowered, these paraffins become less soluble in the fuel and precipitate out as wax crystals. In some fuel systems, cloud point can indicate the onset of fuel-filter plugging. Although ASTM D975 provides a test method for determining cloud point, it does not set a specific temperature. This is because it is impractical to set low temperature properties for all ambient temperatures. Also, depending on equipment design and operating conditions, satisfactory operation may be achieved even below the cloud point. Cloud point and other low temperature operability limits such as low temperature filterability, cold filter plugging point, and pour point are generally specified by contract between the fuel supplier and fuel purchaser, who can best determine the necessary limit based on intended use and anticipated climate. Pour point is the lowest temperature at which the fuel will flow and is used to predict the lowest temperature at which the fuel can be pumped. As mentioned above, other tests include the 擢ilterability of Diesel Fuels by Low Temperature Flow Test (LTFT) and the 鼎old Filter Plugging Point (CFPP) test. One or more of these can help predict a diesel fuel痴 low temperature operability properties.


This is an invoice from 2013 so the prices are not current. it was just the first invoice I found.

bWdvYrv.jpg


Here is another delivery slip date uncertain.

ik82b2L.jpg


There are a limited number of fuel refineries in both Canada and the USA. They are very expensive to design and build. These refineries are taking the crude oil and distilling out all the fractions of the hydrocarbons in the crude and at the very end they end up with a fuel often called bunker oil because very large ships burn it. At room temp it is like asphalt.

In between the start and end of this distilling process come gasoline, jet fuels diesel fuels, etc.

If you were running a fleet of several thousand highway 18 wheelers, you would have on your staff an expert who would carefully determine the properties needed in these trucks based upon their operating temperatures and other factors. Fuel distributors bidding to supply fuel to this company's specifications, would be blending the various products produced in the refinery to meet these specifications.

Next there are both private laboratories testing the fuel to ensure it met the specific properties required in the bidding process and in doing so ensure the large trucking company gets what they paid for and wanted.

For the little guy at the diesel pump, he is at the mercy of the seller. The fuels with the higher Cetane number and lower cloud point temperature are more expensive so the tendency is to sell a blend that will just barely get by most of the time and then sell additives for their fuel to make extra $.

The so called -40F fuel I order is my suppliers blend that they have determined will operate without any problem down to -40. It is my experience over 30 years that they have been successful in doing that.

They take the guess work out of deciding what I should buy.

Perhaps, and I don't know your bulk supplier, you should turn things around and tell them what temperature performance you expect them to deliver that will not require you to be adding stuff to it and further meet Kubota's sulfur and Cetane spec's.

Fuels are a complicated topic and many owners have their way of doing things based upon experience and not any real lab testing. It is almost like a religion.

I hope all of the above is helpful.

Dave M7040
 
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   / Mcormick starting issues #24  
Trucking may work that way in canada, but when I drove here in the states, not so. We didn't have a fuel analysis guy. We had shops and the shop foreman' s would issue cold weather bulletins concerning fuel additive and to keep them running. That last 10 years or so of my career I pulled government loads. I pulled for a couple of the largest government contractors in the nation. Once again, no fuel analysis guy. One contractor was based in Eagan Minnesota and they had some common sense. One contractor was based in little rock Arkansas and they were dumber than a box of rocks when it came to cold weather ops. Yes we had a set of dedicated fuel stops. These fuel stops were bases on who accepted com data and or where the company could leverage an open account. One example is we used the pilot truck stop in council bluffs Iowa as a fuel stop, however not all pilots were a fuel stop. We used a no name truck stop in Hershey me cause we had an open account. The flying j truck in north Platte me was 12 miles away but would not accept com data or " play ball " with an open account. Never heard of a trucking company having a fuel analysis guy and I've pulled for some pretty big companies.
 
   / Mcormick starting issues #25  
Trucking may work that way in canada, but when I drove here in the states, not so. We didn't have a fuel analysis guy. We had shops and the shop foreman' s would issue cold weather bulletins concerning fuel additive and to keep them running. That last 10 years or so of my career I pulled government loads. I pulled for a couple of the largest government contractors in the nation. Once again, no fuel analysis guy. One contractor was based in Eagan Minnesota and they had some common sense. One contractor was based in little rock Arkansas and they were dumber than a box of rocks when it came to cold weather ops. Yes we had a set of dedicated fuel stops. These fuel stops were bases on who accepted com data and or where the company could leverage an open account. One example is we used the pilot truck stop in council bluffs Iowa as a fuel stop, however not all pilots were a fuel stop. We used a no name truck stop in Hershey me cause we had an open account. The flying j truck in north Platte me was 12 miles away but would not accept com data or " play ball " with an open account. Never heard of a trucking company having a fuel analysis guy and I've pulled for some pretty big companies.

I am not doubting that that is how you saw things from "the road."

Can I ask you to describe how a really big organization like the USA military sets about developing fuel specs and purchasing fuels.

You had previously described JP-5 and added the info that the Navy just used that one fuel. Who used JP-7?

Dave M7040
 
   / Mcormick starting issues #26  
You tell me. Say you have 2500 freightliners with Detroit engines. You got the support of freightliner and Detroit. You got you own shops with mechanics. You got trucks running on the road and they rotate them into a terminal for service. How many tanks of fuel will that truck burn before it goes in for service??? Ok let's say you right on this fuel guy. As soon as he turns in his report, The trucks are all the say. He would no longer be needed. And Detroit and freightliner are going to tell what you need. Makes absolutely no sense and once the guy turned in his reports, he'd be no longer needed.
Now, naval aviation, that a whole new ball game. They're always checking and double checking everything. You can afford a mishap. They're checking fuel samples, hydraulic fluid samples, walking the flightline to prevent fod (foreign object damage) and the list goes on and on. And of course some of the biggest waste is the US government. I've seen it with my own eyes.
 
   / Mcormick starting issues
  • Thread Starter
#28  
Could you share the wiring diagram you got from the Winchester dealer. It might help me better understand what is going on.

If you have it in electronic form as a pdf file email it to me

david.petepiece@sympatico.ca

Most tractors have relays that are the same. Swapping those that are the same may suddenly show you which relay is not working properly.

Dave M7040

Hi Dave,

I only took a picture of the wiring diagram, but I will post it here, and\or email it to you.
 
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   / Mcormick starting issues
  • Thread Starter
#29  
Just buy the fuel rated for the operating temps and forget playing chemist.

-40F rated colored diesel. Never gels and never any additives.

On a large winter construction site I don't see people running around adding kerosene.

A few cents more per liter but well worth it.

Dave M7040

I have been buying from Stinson in Kemptville. I will check what type of fuel they have.
Thanks for mentioning it
 
   / Mcormick starting issues
  • Thread Starter
#30  
I'm going to play "devils advocate". Please read my post cold weather and junk fuel in owning and operating. You stated you temps at about 30 below Fahrenheit. At that cold I'd be cutting the fuel with kerosene as well as using a fuel supplement. My massey (believe me it is not a cold weather tractor) acted the same way. It ran as long as the key was in the start position else it would die. Put a heat lamp on the injector pump and fuel lines. Finally it would run some and then die. Kept playing with it and finally got it to run on its own. It ran pretty rough, but finally smoothed out. Added more supplement and let it run well over an hour. You have got to have a hot battery to trigger relays and solenoid. You mentioned you had power to blue wire and it started after "piggy backing" on another battery.
Now, for tractor #2: an old allis Chalmers basically all mechanical. It got cold and gelled up. Put on knew fuel filter, added some supplement and got it going. Let it run about an hour.(problem solved or so I thought). We got down to about 15 below zero Fahrenheit and I had more trouble. Put a heat lamp on the injector pump and fuel lines. Put the wife's hair dryer blowing in the air breather. Put a boost-a-charge battery charger on it. Got it running but it would suck the fuel filter dry. Now this fuel filter was at most one week old. Fiddled and piddled. No luck. Fuel filter looked great. Went got a knew fuel filter and "presto" got it running and let it run for about an hour and a half. Added more supplement and winter blend fuel. Both tractors give me a fit. Massey acting similar to yours. Problem =Cold and fuel. I've seen it time and time again. Guy think the got electrical problems, injector pump problem, injector problem and it turns out to be cold and fuel problem. If you plug in a block heater and use you glow plugs, you haven't dealt with the cold fuel. As the fuel tries to move through the lines and filter at 30 below you can still have trouble even with supplement. At 30 below, I generally start mixing in a little kerosene. Just my thoughts.

Hi Phillip,

It's been pretty cold, but the tractor has always started, except for this time.

I use a fuel conditioner all the time. The tractor has always started, and we have had some cold winters. I bought it new, and like I said never any problems.
If it were a fuel problem, should it not have happened before? I always plug the tractor in a while before I go to start it.
Now the weather is a lot warmer, so the tractor starts. Maybe as Dave suggested, I should look for winter diesel. Didn't even occur to me to look or ask for that

Thanks for sharing your post, i will read it.
 

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