Dumb questions that deserve good answers.

AxleHub · May 17, 2018

Time again for a "dumb" question that needs a good answer.

Like many other scuts, the Massey GC series does quarter inching on its 3pt instead of position control on larger units.

The question is. . . What do you do to actually do quarter inching for the 3 pt. ?

AxleHub · Jun 9, 2018

You've probably seen multiple threads over time that talk about the front end loader on SCUT tractors and having, ordering, getting, or making a leveller indicator for your favorite model SCUT. But it creates a couple of thoughts:

1. What about something easy like a plastic torpedo level placed on the top or bottom of a fel hydraulic piston or fel arm - held in place by a pipe clip clamp to keep it there while you need it and then easily removed in 2 seconds when done. And of course they come in several bright colors

2. I always wonder why threads express the desire to achieve level seems focused on the fel - - - when the dump and curl function still moves the bucket out of level . Shouldn't the need be for the bucket bottom to be level?

WranglerX · Jun 9, 2018

AxleHub said:
You've probably seen multiple threads over time that talk about the front end loader on SCUT tractors and having, ordering, getting, or making a leveller indicator for your favorite model SCUT. But it creates a couple of thoughts:

1. What about something easy like a plastic torpedo level placed on the top or bottom of a fel hydraulic piston or fel arm - held in place by a pipe clip clamp to keep it there while you need it and then easily removed in 2 seconds when done. And of course they come in several bright colors

2. I always wonder why threads express the desire to achieve level seems focused on the fel - - - when the dump and curl function still moves the bucket out of level . Shouldn't the need be for the bucket bottom to be level?

How you going to see it from operators seat?....

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...ing/397374-gc1705-bucket-level-indicator.html

Do you really understand how bucket level indicator works? The bucket level indicator actually shows position of dump and curl position of bucket, if you want bucket on ground momentary push (raise/lower) into float...

Dale

Dave M7040 · Jun 9, 2018

AxleHub said:
You've probably seen multiple threads over time that talk about the front end loader on SCUT tractors and having, ordering, getting, or making a leveller indicator for your favorite model SCUT. But it creates a couple of thoughts:

1. What about something easy like a plastic torpedo level placed on the top or bottom of a fel hydraulic piston or fel arm - held in place by a pipe clip clamp to keep it there while you need it and then easily removed in 2 seconds when done. And of course they come in several bright colors

2. I always wonder why threads express the desire to achieve level seems focused on the fel - - - when the dump and curl function still moves the bucket out of level . Shouldn't the need be for the bucket bottom to be level?

This is not exactly the question you asked but I think it will perhaps expand your understanding of "level."

Lets say for purposes of this explanation you have pallet forks attached to the FEL bucket. As you raise the arms the bucket goes out of level as it follows the loader arms. This requires constant adjusting of the bucket cylinders to keep the forks and their load level.

FEL can be had with an automatic self leveling feature which, hydraulically, constantly adjusts the bucket cylinders as the loader arms are raised with no operator action required.
For certain jobs this self leveling feature makes operations much smoother and easier.

For the normal non self leveling loader, a display rod is attached to the bucket and placed along the front part of the loader arm. When the bucket is flat on the ground, a mark or bend is made in the rod so, from the operaator's seat you can tell if the bucket is level. This is important when you are lifting something large in the bucket and don't want it to slide out of a bucket which is tilting slightly down.
Another time the display rod is helpful is if you are trying to pick up a bucket of gravel which has been dumped on grass or ground.

If your bucket is tilted slightly forward, it will dig into the grass or ground rather than just picking up the gravel.

Dave M7040

AxleHub · Jun 9, 2018

Greetings DL and Dave,

Here's my point and/or question.

A torpedo level or ball level will indicate gravitational flat (or level). But unless a self levelling system is available - the weakness is that any rod indicator levelling requires and depends on the tractor being completely level. Maybe DL is correct and I don't understand how rod levelers work. So lets see if I do or don't understand the concept with a couple mild and simple examples.

1. I have my full fork set on instead of my bucket and I reset the leveling rod system to indicate when the forks level with the ground. But that setting is done from a flat surface with the tractor on that same surface.

2. But I have a skid in my pickup truck and I want to get the fork in the skid completely level so I can lift the skid properly and smoothly.

3. But now my scut is behind the truck to do this - and the driveway tapers downward some and so the tractor is at a slight incline while the truck is sitting pretty much on the level of the driveway.

4. Now if I set a torpedo level or ball level on the mount bar of the of the fork lift - I can visually see the bubble or ball move to level - so I can walk the fork set forks into the skid evenly and without forcing anything.

5. But if I was using rod leveling - as threads often describe - my rods can't be adapt to the fact the tractor is not totally level - it has no way of actually indicating gravitational level. So if I did use the rod leveler, then my 36 inch long forks will be going into the skid at an angle - its maybe not some huge angle - but it makes a difference of "inches" and the skid will be pushed and shifted.

Isn't that correct ?

Now lets use an even simpler example - not with 36 inch long forks but just my regular scut bucket.

I want to push the bucket into a pile of dirt that is on my front yard to create a flat area. Standard bucket - using a rod leveler. Now yard has some significant slopes and sidehills to it - but lets not describe the extreme - lets just describe a mild little couple of degree angle and I come up to the dirt pile from the lower end of that angle of lawn. Once again - my bucket bottom will not be flat because the tractor is not flat - and so my rod leveler will indicate different. And lastly - lets recognize that a slight couple of degree angle is "nothing" for an amount - but remember that the back of my scut is many feet away from the bucket - and so the rod leveler will be "off of level" by more than just a degree or two because my rear wheels may be inches lower than my front wheels.

At least in Western Wisconsin where I'm familiar - we just don't have much for flat surfaces unless you live in the cities or way on the southern end of Wisconsin.

In both examples above - I'm describing the fact that a rod leveler may work OK if the surface you are working on is firm, smooth, and level. But it appears to me that as soon as any one of those 3 conditions is not true - then either you must readjust the rod leveler - or only use it when those 3 conditions exist together.

Now just to be clear - my examples were not deliberately extreme - in fact they were deliberately extremely mild and not typical of my terrain at all.

And as far as seeing either a bubble or a ball-level on a level - even my old eyes can see either of those at the distance from seat to bucket of a scut - or seat to fork set back mount.

DL, how am I doing ? Does it seem like I understand how rod levelers function or am I in error? Does your rod leveler somehow adapt to surface angles whether small (like my examples) or large (like my terrain) ?

WranglerX · Jun 9, 2018

AxleHub said:
Greetings DL and Dave,

Here's my point and/or question.

A torpedo level or ball level will indicate gravitational flat (or level). But unless a self levelling system is available - the weakness is that any rod indicator levelling requires and depends on the tractor being completely level. Maybe DL is correct and I don't understand how rod levelers work. So lets see if I do or don't understand the concept with a couple mild and simple examples.

1. I have my full fork set on instead of my bucket and I reset the leveling rod system to indicate when the forks level with the ground. But that setting is done from a flat surface with the tractor on that same surface.

2. But I have a skid in my pickup truck and I want to get the fork in the skid completely level so I can lift the skid properly and smoothly.

3. But now my scut is behind the truck to do this - and the driveway tapers downward some and so the tractor is at a slight incline while the truck is sitting pretty much on the level of the driveway.

4. Now if I set a torpedo level or ball level on the mount bar of the of the fork lift - I can visually see the bubble or ball move to level - so I can walk the fork set forks into the skid evenly and without forcing anything.

5. But if I was using rod leveling - as threads often describe - my rods can't be adapt to the fact the tractor is not totally level - it has no way of actually indicating gravitational level. So if I did use the rod leveler, then my 36 inch long forks will be going into the skid at an angle - its maybe not some huge angle - but it makes a difference of "inches" and the skid will be pushed and shifted.

Isn't that correct ?

Now lets use an even simpler example - not with 36 inch long forks but just my regular scut bucket.

I want to push the bucket into a pile of dirt that is on my front yard to create a flat area. Standard bucket - using a rod leveler. Now yard has some significant slopes and sidehills to it - but lets not describe the extreme - lets just describe a mild little couple of degree angle and I come up to the dirt pile from the lower end of that angle of lawn. Once again - my bucket bottom will not be flat because the tractor is not flat - and so my rod leveler will indicate different. And lastly - lets recognize that a slight couple of degree angle is "nothing" for an amount - but remember that the back of my scut is many feet away from the bucket - and so the rod leveler will be "off of level" by more than just a degree or two because my rear wheels may be inches lower than my front wheels.

At least in Western Wisconsin where I'm familiar - we just don't have much for flat surfaces unless you live in the cities or way on the southern end of Wisconsin.

In both examples above - I'm describing the fact that a rod leveler may work OK if the surface you are working on is firm, smooth, and level. But it appears to me that as soon as any one of those 3 conditions is not true - then either you must readjust the rod leveler - or only use it when those 3 conditions exist together.

Now just to be clear - my examples were not deliberately extreme - in fact they were deliberately extremely mild and not typical of my terrain at all.

And as far as seeing either a bubble or a ball-level on a level - even my old eyes can see either of those at the distance from seat to bucket of a scut - or seat to fork set back mount.

DL, how am I doing ? Does it seem like I understand how rod levelers function or am I in error? Does your rod leveler somehow adapt to surface angles whether small (like my examples) or large (like my terrain) ?

Right from get go you misunderstand "bucket level"... It actually means parallel to working surface with FEL in lowest practical position (float?) .... That is what rod indicates, whether is it is parallel to surface or in dump or curl relationship to work surface... Rod system is only only calibrated with bucket "level" and tractor on "level" surface (shop floor?) ..... Level is relative to bottom (floor) of bucket parallel to ground with FEL is lowest practical position, does not matter if on flat ground or on slope when in use...

For any other situation rod system indicates amount of curl or dump in bucket, forks, or bail spear in relation to surface tractor is sitting on.. But by the point you should be able to do visual on where bucket is, rod indicator is basically good for tell when bucket is at correct angularit for straight in scoop work...

You can only sense "level" on most of your scenarios is if you have remote sensor on bucket and indicator on dash, you continual reling on being able to see a bubble level is really quit impractical and it is only going to indicate bucket is level with plane of earth surface and not indicate any angular disparity with dump or curl out of plane tractor is working on...

Dale

dnw64 · Jun 9, 2018

I would say that a bucket level indicator (whether "traditional" or AxelHub's variation) is mostly good for when everything is relatively level. Once things are out of whack you just have to trust your senses a bit more. For that matter, a level indicator is normally just a starting point; you generally have to massage out your work from there.

WranglerX · Jun 11, 2018

dnw64 said:
I would say that a bucket level indicator (whether "traditional" or AxelHub's variation) is mostly good for when everything is relatively level. Once things are out of whack you just have to trust your senses a bit more. For that matter, a level indicator is normally just a starting point; you generally have to massage out your work from there.

You nailed it but instead of "relative level" I think better phrase is "relative parallel" at ground level ...

Dale

AxleHub · Jun 11, 2018

DL and Dave.

With all due respect - I don't want to be argumentative - but you're talking in "government speak". If a rod leveler is only good on flat ground and its only for creating a Parallel to the tractor - then why call it a leveler at all. Putting your fel in float mode creates a parallel situation and it follows the contours of the surface you're on. As I see it - a "rod leveler" works on flat ground when the tractor is not repositioining itself - as soon as the tractor moves - you have now changed even parallel if the surface you're on is not fully flat.

Most of us with tractors don't have much surface that is flat except a garage floor or workshop floor or maybe a portion of a driveway - everything else is not level. So what do I mean? Well my patio is flat but its tapered for water run off - same with my sidewalks and 90% of my driveway. The road in front of our home is blacktopped and has an side ways incline for water run off and another angle for traffic curve. My lawn has numerous slopes and sidehills - and my my backyard which is somewhat "flat" tapers at a fair angle again for water run off - so "parallel on a flat surface" is unlikely for all the homes in our development and in the township. On the other hand - when constructing our home - level (not parallel) was vital for creating the surface the house would be compacted and built on and also where the footings were to be laid. Every floor in our home whether lower level or main level - whether concrete or tile needed to be level - every door and window set with a level - every sink and countertop done with a level. Refrigerators and washers are leveled - not parallel.

When we create gardens in our yard or on our slopes - the dirt is leveled so water doesn't rivelet. All our landscape blocking and exterior block landscape walls and concrete stairs are leveled.

Parallel is something for highway lanes or high school track lanes - although both of those examples are leveled in their original build and then tapered for water.

For machinist and tool and die people - "parallels" are highly accurate precision ground units used along with highly accurate block squares to assure great accuracy and squareness.

Maybe where you folks live you have lots of flat surface ground - but not here. In construction efforts we'd get the land level - and then back drag for smoothness in float mode and then compact and re level again.

I guess a rod leveler isn't for me - because all it is a rod paralleler on already near flat locations.