importance of position control

[Tractorrr]

Ive been wandering lately what difference position control on the 3 pt. hitch makes. I've noticed that the B seriers tractors now have it, but the bx series still do not. My main use would be box blading or using a land plane to smooth out areas of the yard . I also plan to get a tiller and wasn't sure if it affects that or not. Thanks

 

[SDT]

Ive been wandering lately what difference position control on the 3 pt. hitch makes. I've noticed that the B seriers tractors now have it, but the bx series still do not. My main use would be box blading or using a land plane to smooth out areas of the yard . I also plan to get a tiller and wasn't sure if it affects that or not. Thanks

I would never buy any tractor, even a SCUT, without position control.

Position control was removed from many SCUTs several years ago in order to save cost. JD has returned it to their "premium" line of SCUTs and I do not believe that MF (Iseki) ever removed it). IMHO, the handwriting is on the wall. I expect that Kubota will restore it with the next version of SCUTs.

Draft control is an entirely different matter, and is not needed unless one wants to plow or use similar heavy tillage implements.

SDT

 

[rScotty]

Ive been wandering lately what difference position control on the 3 pt. hitch makes. I've noticed that the B seriers tractors now have it, but the bx series still do not. My main use would be box blading or using a land plane to smooth out areas of the yard . I also plan to get a tiller and wasn't sure if it affects that or not. Thanks

Position control simply means that the three point control lever can be positioned anywhere from fully down to fully up and the three point hitch will hold the implement at that position while you are using it.

Draft control is something entirely different. A previous poster got it wrong. Draft control automatically raises the 3pt implement when it encounters too much resistance. Draft control is a supplement to position control, but is usually only found on tractors large enough to pull a plow. That's what draft control was made for - to protect you and the machine when you were plowing and hit a rock.

YOU DEFINITELY WANT THREE POINT POSITION CONTROL ON ANY TRACTOR.

Postion control makes a huge difference when using 3pt implements of any kind. Position control used to be standard on every tractorbuilt from about 1950 up until recently when some really dumb companies deleted it on tractors they thought were basically too small to need it. But that's crazy. The smaller the tractor, the more you need position control.
rScotty

 

[Gary Fowler]

Position control simply means that the three point control lever can be positioned anywhere from fully down to fully up and the three point hitch will hold the implement at that position while you are using it.

Draft control is something entirely different. A previous poster got it wrong. Draft control automatically raises the 3pt implement when it encounters too much resistance. Draft control is a supplement to position control, but is usually only found on tractors large enough to pull a plow. That's what draft control was made for - to protect you and the machine when you were plowing and hit a rock.

YOU DEFINITELY WANT THREE POINT POSITION CONTROL ON ANY TRACTOR.

Postion control makes a huge difference when using 3pt implements of any kind. Position control used to be standard on every tractorbuilt from about 1950 up until recently when some really dumb companies deleted it on tractors they thought were basically too small to need it. But that's crazy. The smaller the tractor, the more you need position control.
rScotty

I agree completely. If I were deleting something it would be draft control, not position control. What kind of idiot engineer deletes position control on a 3 PH. Actually, the smaller the tractor the more you need position control to set the implement depth. Just having a full up or full down is idiocy for any tractor especially a SCUT or CUT.

 

[JWR]

Scotty -- I am sure you really meant some companies have been (as SDT said) leaving off DRAFT control on many models, not POSITION control.

ERROR MY MISTAKE; SDT did talk about Position Control being removed from many SCUTs. I back off and say I'm not aware of that stuff. My 30+year understanding is what I originally described below.


I have yet to ever see a tractor with an hydraulic 3pt hitch that did not have position control. I'd be curious what tractors are being made without position control (if you really meant that.)

Gary: None of the 3pt lift controls are made for "full up or full down" with nothing in between. At risk of offending the intel of many readers who know the what and why of Draft control, I'll comment as follows:

All (so far as I know) tractors provide Position Control which is the most simple and just means you raise or lower the 3pt as needed with a single lever. Nearly 100% are downward by gravity or implement force only, not hydraulics. As SDT said , Draft control is usually found on larger machines made to faciltate plowing and heavier tillage. In short, DRAFT Control requires sensing of the vertical load on the implement aft of the 3pt. [The one I have more experience with senses load on the top link though there are some that sense lift arms, etc.] That sensed vertical implement load is used in a feedback system internal to the tractor to reduce the hydraulic lift if the forces are above a threshold. On tractors with Draft Control that threshold is set by a second control lever. Typically that second (Draft) lever is kept in an "out of service" or "not in use" stored position effectively disabling Draft Control while the user operates the tractor using nothing but the Position Control. When you do invoke Draft control, the 2 levers both have an effect on the height of the implement. The Position lever sets the static level relative to the tractor while the Draft lever controls the dynamic level variation. While Draft Control might offer some protection when hitting a rock, the main purpose is to keep the plow a more constant depth in the ground and not have it riding up and down irregularly as your tractor rides up and down over the terrain.

Tractorrr: In your stated applications pulling drags, land leveling things, and even the tiller -- I doubt that Draft control would help you at all. I think of it as nothing but a confusion factor unless your are plowing.

 

[Tractorrr]

The type of position control I'm talking about is the one that SDT mentioned. The bx basically has an up and down lever but it can stop in between and you could pull up or bump the lever to bring it to a certain level. The newer B models now have a position control where you can set the implement to a certain number. What kind of advantage would this be when using a box blade? I would think it is most effective to use the box blade in the float position on the bx but what advantage would it be to have position control?

 

[SDT]

Scotty -- I am sure you really meant some companies have been (as SDT said) leaving off DRAFT control on many models, not POSITION control.

ERROR MY MISTAKE; SDT did talk about Position Control being removed from many SCUTs. I back off and say I'm not aware of that stuff. My 30+year understanding is what I originally described below.


I have yet to ever see a tractor with an hydraulic 3pt hitch that did not have position control. I'd be curious what tractors are being made without position control (if you really meant that.)

Gary: None of the 3pt lift controls are made for "full up or full down" with nothing in between. At risk of offending the intel of many readers who know the what and why of Draft control, I'll comment as follows:

All (so far as I know) tractors provide Position Control which is the most simple and just means you raise or lower the 3pt as needed with a single lever. Nearly 100% are downward by gravity or implement force only, not hydraulics. As SDT said , Draft control is usually found on larger machines made to faciltate plowing and heavier tillage. In short, DRAFT Control requires sensing of the vertical load on the implement aft of the 3pt. [The one I have more experience with senses load on the top link though there are some that sense lift arms, etc.] That sensed vertical implement load is used in a feedback system internal to the tractor to reduce the hydraulic lift if the forces are above a threshold. On tractors with Draft Control that threshold is set by a second control lever. Typically that second (Draft) lever is kept in an "out of service" or "not in use" stored position effectively disabling Draft Control while the user operates the tractor using nothing but the Position Control. When you do invoke Draft control, the 2 levers both have an effect on the height of the implement. The Position lever sets the static level relative to the tractor while the Draft lever controls the dynamic level variation. While Draft Control might offer some protection when hitting a rock, the main purpose is to keep the plow a more constant depth in the ground and not have it riding up and down irregularly as your tractor rides up and down over the terrain.

Tractorrr: In your stated applications pulling drags, land leveling things, and even the tiller -- I doubt that Draft control would help you at all. I think of it as nothing but a confusion factor unless your are plowing.

Sorry, JWR, but you are simply incorrect.

Most (not all) SCUTs and some CUTS sold within the past 15 years or so do not have position control.

If you do not know the difference between position control and draft control, find a GOOD late model Ford 8N with functional draft control (most are not) (I have one if you need to inspect) and try plowing with the position/draft control lever in each position.

Having done so, post back.

SDT

 

[dodge man]

I have a BX with no position control. I really can not do any grading with the rear blade, I just use it for snow removal. Is this because I do not have position control? I do not think it matters. I blame the short wheel base and small tires makes it gouge. On the other hand with a box blade, it might be more important.

 

[IchabodCrayne]

My Kubota bx23s does not have position control but you can bump the 3ph up or down as you please and it will hold there . I'm using my box blade without issue.

 

[rScotty]

I have a BX with no position control. I really can not do any grading with the rear blade, I just use it for snow removal. Is this because I do not have position control? I do not think it matters. I blame the short wheel base and small tires makes it gouge. On the other hand with a box blade, it might be more important.

My Kubota bx23s does not have position control but you can bump the 3ph up or down as you please and it will hold there . I'm using my box blade without issue.

OK, we've established that draft control and position control are two different things, and that of the two, it is 3 point position control is most important to have.

But there still seems to be some misunderstanding about just what position control consists of.

Position control simply means that if you set the 3pt raising and lowering lever to any position between full up and full down then the implement will go to that position and hang there.

Position Control works like this: Moving the 3 point control lever fully one way will cause the implement to raise to its maximum height and stay there. Fully moving that lever the other direction will move the implement the other way. One way raises it, the other way drops the implement to the ground. Raising is done hydraulically; lowering is done by gravity. Regardless of whether you start at full up or full down, placing the lever in any intermediate position between full up and full down will cause the implement to go to that level and hang there. From any intermediate position you can then use the 3 point control lever to raise or lower the implement by tiny fractions of an inch and it will do so and hang there. And that is the beauty of position control....the ability to very slightly raise or lower the implement to match the ground condition.

Once in an intermediate position, nothing will cause the implement to fall down from that position because it is being held there by the fluid in the 3 point hydraulic cylinder. However, that 3 pt hydraulic cylinder only acts to keep the implement from falling lower. The ground or a couple of strong men can lift the implement up from that position - that's the nature of a 3pt lift - it is power up & gravity down. So once those strong guys lift the implement, when they let go then it is gravity that will return the implement back to whatever level that the position control is set to.

I hope this helps,
rScotty

And to Dodge Man and IchabodCrayne - I'm curious and it sounds like several other old timers are too. Does what I've described match what your BX does?

 

[oosik]

How can a 3-point even be used without position control. In my case - be rather difficult to connect up any of my 3-point implements - they weigh from 730# to 1050#.

Now draft control - totally different operation. I've used it with my moldboard plow. I guess it works OK - until the plow encountered a large rock - trips and I have to reset and start all over again.

All my land engagement 3-point implements do a good job without draft control. I can see its use if I were plowing large, rock free fields with a multi-bottom mold board plow.

My operators manual has a very precise/adequate description of both position control and draft control.

JMHO - but some are confusing position control and draft control. I would almost guarantee - if your tractor has a 3-point system - you have, at least, position control. You may/may not have draft control. Think about it - - if you have a 3-point system - how do you raise/lower any attached implement. That lever you just grabbed to raise/lower the implement is your position control.

Why do we continue to disagree when its as simple as reading the appropriate section of your Op manual.

 

[rScotty]

How can a 3-point even be used without position control. In my case - be rather difficult to connect up any of my 3-point implements - they weigh from 730# to 1050#.

Now draft control - totally different operation. I've used it with my moldboard plow. I guess it works OK - until the plow encountered a large rock - trips and I have to reset and start all over again.

All my land engagement 3-point implements do a good job without draft control. I can see its use if I were plowing large, rock free fields with a multi-bottom mold board plow.

My operators manual has a very precise/adequate description of both position control and draft control.

JMHO - but some are confusing position control and draft control. I would almost guarantee - if your tractor has a 3-point system - you have, at least, position control. You may/may not have draft control. Think about it - - if you have a 3-point system - how do you raise/lower any attached implement. That lever you just grabbed to raise/lower the implement is your position control.

Why do we continue to disagree when its as simple as reading the appropriate section of your Op manual.

I agree that every tractor with a 3pt lift should have some sort of position control built in. But maybe you and I are wrong and the SCUT BX models are different. Frankly, I don't know....but this much confusion can't be good. It could be that they only lift all the way up with nothing in between? Anyway, that's why I described EXACTLY how a 3pt position control should work about 2 posts back from this one this morning. And then I'm asking the two BX owners who posted here if that is how their BX 3pt works. Then we will know more.

BTW, I think the draft control on my JD might/might not work differently from your Kubota? The JD doesn't "trip" or "reset".... but I guess you could describe the action that way. It sort of depends on how it is described.

Anyway, here is what the JD draft control does:

To start, you set the draft control whatever amount of resistance that you want it to respond to. Then set the draft control lever to "on". Now when the plow hits a tough spot or a rock, first the tractor slows down and next the 3pt draft control hums as it rapidly raises the implement starting with a rapid fire series of small increments of maybe 1/8" and then if that doesn't help it makes each raising increment larger until about two seconds later it might be raising the implement several inches at a time. THe whole process happens very quickly because all the time the tractor is trying to pull the implement through the dirt.
From the seat all you feel is the tractor slow down and then hear and feel the jerking of a rapid series of hydraulic actuations.
As soon as the tough spot is passed, the 3pt automatically returns the implement to the previous depth.
Does that sound like how your Kubota works?
rScotty

 

[oosik]

No, no - rScotty. I can see that my explanation can be misunderstood. My draft control does not trip or reset - its my moldboard plow that trips and I have to manually reset the plow.

When I've used draft control - its never been as exotic as you describe. The plow hits a buried rock - the plow trips - I have to stop and reset the plow.

The way you describe it - that's the way it would work if I had an area that was free of big 'ol rocks. When I have draft control engaged - hit a big rock - plow trips - tractor continues on as though nothing happened. The tractor does not care one little bit if the plow is doing a good job or not. As a matter of fact - the plow trips - draft control sees little or no resistance and the lower arms drop to the lowest setting that I have set with position control.

I sure have no knowledge of what type of 3-point system the BX might have. If they have a 3-point system - there must be some way of raising/lowering the lower arms - you would think.

 

[TMGT]

Position control means there is feedback to the 3pt control as to position, it allows one to repeatedly drop the implement to a predetermined point, also allows it to compensate for leakage. It's very handy if you are doing things like spreading and can constantly drop the box blade to say, 3in above grade for example.

My tractor has a 1/4inching valve, basically it's has a detent that allows approx a 1/4in of movement, other then that it operates similar to a single acting valve where it holds one you center the valve.

I wouldn't buy another tractor without it.

 

[herringchoker]

Perhaps this short video will help explain position control:

Hitch Position Control - John Deere 125R vs Kubota BX - YouTube

My B7800 does not have it. I wish it did. I use an adjustable check chain instead.

 

[Gary Fowler]

Scotty -- I am sure you really meant some companies have been (as SDT said) leaving off DRAFT control on many models, not POSITION control.

ERROR MY MISTAKE; SDT did talk about Position Control being removed from many SCUTs. I back off and say I'm not aware of that stuff. My 30+year understanding is what I originally described below.


I have yet to ever see a tractor with an hydraulic 3pt hitch that did not have position control. I'd be curious what tractors are being made without position control (if you really meant that.)

Gary: None of the 3pt lift controls are made for "full up or full down" with nothing in between. At risk of offending the intel of many readers who know the what and why of Draft control, I'll comment as follows:

That is my point. If they didn't have position control, you would have only full up or full down. I don't think that there is any tractor made with a 3 PH that doesn't have some form of position control. Now most small tractors likely wont have draft control unless it comes as an option. Draft control wont function without some pretty good traction and I doubt that a SCUT would have enough traction to engage the draft control function effectively. Be it 1/4" inching as per Kubota or whatever, it has position control if you can lower the implement to a position somewhere between full up and full down. The tractor may just have a simple set screw to tighten up at the prescribed point that you can return the lever to that position after raising the implement. Basically if you only have one control lever, you have position control. If you have two then you have position and draft control.

 

[TMGT]

That is my point. If they didn't have position control, you would have only full up or full down. I don't think that there is any tractor made with a 3 PH that doesn't have some form of position control. Now most small tractors likely wont have draft control unless it comes as an option. Draft control wont function without some pretty good traction and I doubt that a SCUT would have enough traction to engage the draft control function effectively. Be it 1/4" inching as per Kubota or whatever, it has position control if you can lower the implement to a position somewhere between full up and full down. The tractor may just have a simple set screw to tighten up at the prescribed point that you can return the lever to that position after raising the implement. Basically if you only have one control lever, you have position control. If you have two then you have position and draft control.

Not according to the manufacturer's, they make a distinction between non position control, 1/4in, and position control.

Just because the 3pt will hold a position when the lever is centered doesn't mean it as position control (since it has no control over the position of the 3pt outside of operator influence)

When looking at tractors, the manufacturer makes the distinction and uses this terminolog of non position control, 1/4in and position control.

The OP never mentioned draft control so I'm not sure how that made it into the discussion.

 

[js5020]

BX models do not have position control. The system used is likened to a single acting remote circuit with power up and gravity down with drop rate control, repetitive implement positioning is up to the skill of the operator, lift arm position is not relative to the control handle position.

Is position control necessary? This is up to individual opinion,,, I have both, yes the position control is nice and I wish the BX had it but it wasn't a deal breaker so I see it as not necessary.

 

[GirlWhoWantsTractor]

Trying to understand this.

Sounds like rScotty was referring to "position control" as simply the ability to adjust the position of the 3PH up-or-down-or-somewhere-inbetween using the lever.

Sounds like there is also a more advanced "position control" that does some kind of automatic adjustments (without operator input?) to maintain the implement at a constant height above the ground? If so, I wish I had that feature. Sure would help with box-blading!

 

[js5020]

Trying to understand this.

Sounds like rScotty was referring to "position control" as simply the ability to adjust the position of the 3PH up-or-down-or-somewhere-inbetween using the lever.

Sounds like there is also a more advanced "position control" that does some kind of automatic adjustments (without operator input?) to maintain the implement at a constant height above the ground? If so, I wish I had that feature. Sure would help with box-blading!

This is draft control, usually found on ag tractors essentially it senses load through the top link of the 3pt, as load is applied to an implement say a moldboard plow a hard spot forces the top link towards the tractor and usually some sort of feedback linkage to the hyd control valve and it automatically makes adjustments to help with loss of traction. There is operator input, one must set up the control sensitivity for the job.