CK30 stalled while mowing and now won't start. Advice, please!

[woolyAcres]

I'll check around for wires underneath the tractor, but when it stalled and couldn't be restarted I was only mowing about 6" tall grass. The tractor stalled because the mower scalped some dirt as I topped a hill.

Can you remind me what happens when you try to start the tractor?
1. It just clicks and nothing happens
2. It rolls over but won't actually start
3. something else all together?

I keep thinking back to the trouble we had with our NH. Months of not working correctly, bought a new safety sensor for $50 no change, hot-wired and just used it for the winter because it was too cold to work on it. Come spring we triple-checked the seat shut-off (which we'd long ago shorted so it wouldn't turn off when standing) and there was bad contact on our shorting wire.

I wonder if by some chance you've got some safety switch not working correctly such that you can run the tractor but no start it. In which case the problem may have occurred long before it stalled. Just thinking out loud.

In addition, what safety switches does your tractor have?

 

[DOCatRU]

WoolyAcres:

Here is the recap:

1. dash lights (including glow plug) comes on when the key is turned.
2. When glow light goes out the key is turned to start, a click is heard but the engine does not turn over.
3. The tractor will start and run when the starter is jumped with a screw driver.
4. I swapped the two identical replays on the firewall. (The starter relay and the engine stop relay) Attempted to start with the key. Once again, key is turned and a click is heard.

This is a 2008 Kioti CK30 gear drive. I do not believe there is a "seat switch"

There is a clutch safety switch.
In reading through the wiring diagram, there does not appear to be a PTO safety switch.

Following the recommendations from forum members:

Tomorrow I am going to:

1. double check the fuse block and see if anything is blown.
2. Check if the starter solenoid has 12v on the solenoid when the ignition switch is on.

In reading through the Kioti Electric System shop manual there is a procedure for checking the ignition switch with a multi meter. I'll pull that out tomorrow and check it.

Is there anything you think I have missed?

David

 

[ritcheyvs]

David, I looked at the big schematic but didn't see any fuses that might explain your symptoms. Here it is:
View attachment CK25-27-30-35.pdf

If you want to isolate this systematically, this list works backward from the starter to find where things still work.
1. Start by measuring the voltage at the spade terminal on the starter. You should see 12v there when the key is turned to start.
2. If not, go to the start relay. Most relays have a schematic printed on the side to tell which pin is which. Go to the 12v feed pin (one of the 2 0r 3 bigger pins). You should get 12v whenever the key is ON and also when the key is turned to start.
3. Can you "feel" the relay operate when the key is turned to start? This is interesting but not conclusive.
4. Move to the output pin of the start relay, another bigger pin. You should see 12v when the key is turned to start.
5. Move to the smaller coil pins of the relay. One should always read zero volts, even with the key in start. The other coil pin should read 12v with the key is turned to start.
6. Go the the clutch safety switch (probably just jumper the connector). You should see 12v when the key is turned to start.
7. Go to the key switch start output (probably the correct solder blob on the back of the switch). You should see 12v when the switch is turned to start.

I notice the display unit (also on the firewall, as I recall) gets a 12v signal from the start circuit, upstream of the relay. If the display unit got shorted internally,it might drag down that 12v signal to the relay and prevent the relay from functioning. A quickie check would be to just unplug the display unit connector and then see if the starter cranks with the key.

Some general comments. If you have a helper to operate the key (while you monitor voltages) it really helps. It's hard to be sure which relay is the start relay and which is the stop solenoid relay. The stop solenoid makes a distinct sound when the switch is turned to ON. If you unplug the stop relay and then turn the key ON, you won't get that sound. If yo unplug the start relay you'll still get that "clack" sound. You should be able to sneak the connector off the relay a little to get your meter probe (or a piece of wire) in there to measure pin voltages. Just be careful not to short hot pins to the ground pin.

All this sounds complicated but it goes fast once you get the hang of it. It helps to take notes to remind your self which measurements produced what results. The starter works so it's just a matter of finding where the control circuit is broken.

 

[thepumpguysc]

That's some really good info Ritcheyvs.. thank you for taking the time..
I'm not sure if that shut off solenoid is energized to run or energized to shut off..?? but you might be able to apply 12 volts to the solenoid from the battery{ jumper wire} & jump the starter inorder to start the engine & "get'r to the shed"..??
Good luck.

 

[LouNY]

David, I looked at the big schematic but didn't see any fuses that might explain your symptoms. Here it is:
View attachment 569643

If you want to isolate this systematically, this list works backward from the starter to find where things still work.
1. Start by measuring the voltage at the spade terminal on the starter. You should see 12v there when the key is turned to start.
2. If not, go to the start relay. Most relays have a schematic printed on the side to tell which pin is which. Go to the 12v feed pin (one of the 2 0r 3 bigger pins). You should get 12v whenever the key is ON and also when the key is turned to start.
3. Can you "feel" the relay operate when the key is turned to start? This is interesting but not conclusive.
4. Move to the output pin of the start relay, another bigger pin. You should see 12v when the key is turned to start.
5. Move to the smaller coil pins of the relay. One should always read zero volts, even with the key in start. The other coil pin should read 12v with the key is turned to start.
6. Go the the clutch safety switch (probably just jumper the connector). You should see 12v when the key is turned to start.
7. Go to the key switch start output (probably the correct solder blob on the back of the switch). You should see 12v when the switch is turned to start.

I notice the display unit (also on the firewall, as I recall) gets a 12v signal from the start circuit, upstream of the relay. If the display unit got shorted internally,it might drag down that 12v signal to the relay and prevent the relay from functioning. A quickie check would be to just unplug the display unit connector and then see if the starter cranks with the key.

Some general comments. If you have a helper to operate the key (while you monitor voltages) it really helps. It's hard to be sure which relay is the start relay and which is the stop solenoid relay. The stop solenoid makes a distinct sound when the switch is turned to ON. If you unplug the stop relay and then turn the key ON, you won't get that sound. If yo unplug the start relay you'll still get that "clack" sound. You should be able to sneak the connector off the relay a little to get your meter probe (or a piece of wire) in there to measure pin voltages. Just be careful not to short hot pins to the ground pin.

All this sounds complicated but it goes fast once you get the hang of it. It helps to take notes to remind your self which measurements produced what results. The starter works so it's just a matter of finding where the control circuit is broken.

Nice writeup, good clear and logical.

 

[woolyAcres]

WoolyAcres:

This is a 2008 Kioti CK30 gear drive. I do not believe there is a "seat switch"

There is a clutch safety switch.
In reading through the wiring diagram, there does not appear to be a PTO safety switch.

Hi David, the schematic and ritcheyvs write-up should get you through this. I don't know the CK30 at all but I'd be very surprised if there's no PTO switch and no seat switch. Did you buy this machine new or used? I only ask because if used, perhaps the previous owner bypassed one or both of these. I can understand bypassing the seat switch but not the PTO switch.

Are there other CK30 owners who can confirm which safety switches this machine has? This sounds very much like a safety switch problem. I would inspect the area around the PTO lever, looking for a little push-button switch that would be depressed when the PTO lever in the OFF position. I'd also flip up the seat and hunt around under there, though I suspect if it's either of these 2 safety switches it'd be the PTO. Seat switches tend to turn off the machine anytime they are open which means they have to be tied to the full pump not the ignition. Since you're runs when hot-wired I don't think that's it.

I don't think my theories rule out any of the other possible issues. These problems are always a pain. I don't envy you but you'll get it figured out I'm sure. Patience, persistence, a multi-meter, and the schematic should get you through.

------------------ EDIT ------------------
I actually looked at the schematic more carefully and I only see the clutch safety switch and no PTO and/or seat switch. In this case I'd have a good inspection of the clutch switch. Find and follow the wires, disconnect the wires from the switch and make sure the switch works correctly- measure the resistance between the 2 terminals on the switch in both open and closed position. It looks like it should be infinite ohms when not pressed and 0ish ohms when pressed. I'd check the wires from the clutch switch and make sure they are in good shape from the SW:Main (ignition?) over to the starter relay. I suppose you could have a bad starter relay. Check that slow-blow 60A fuse and the wiring from the starter relay over to the starter motor; checking for continuity and good connections.

 

[DOCatRU]

You folks have been GREAT!

To answer WoolyAcres, yes I bought this machine used in September of 2016. I've put 180 hours on it and it has been terrific for all of my needs from moving pallets of firewood to brush hogging to snow blowing and general lifting around the farm (including getting my new 800 lb lathe off the pickup truck and into the shop).

This morning I pulled the ignition switch (because it has felt hinkey) and ran the multimeter test specified in the Kioti shop manual. It passed with one caveat: The Engine heat terminal (Terminal C) did not test positive for continuity; however, the glowplug light comes on on the dash when the key is in this position.

The start terminal (Terminal E) did indicate continuity when The key is turned to the start position. So I moved on to retest the relays.

The engine stop relay "clacks" when the key is turned. I swapped the two relays, but the motor did not turn over. So, I moved on to retest the clutch safety switch.

First of all, I noticed that the "free play" in the clutch was way out of spec (over 2.5 inches). I adjusted the lock nut to 1 1/8" (just as an aside the clutch connecting rod is now all the way adjusted to the end. Probably means there is not a lot of meat left on the clutch disk (sadness).

When I locked the clutch in place and retested the switch terminals I got a tiny reading but no beep on the Greenlee multimeter. Perhaps we have a winner. The local Kioti dealer (35 minutes away) has a clutch switch in stock so I think I will pick it up and see if that is the solution.

 

[ritcheyvs]

You folks have been GREAT!

...This morning I pulled the ignition switch (because it has felt hinkey) and ran the multimeter test specified in the Kioti shop manual. It passed with one caveat: The Engine heat terminal (Terminal C) did not test positive for continuity; however, the glowplug light comes on on the dash when the key is in this position. ...

FYI, The key switch has a "glow" position between ON and START. Only in that position will you get continuity at the heat terminal. That position is for a manual glow to override the automatic system. Normally, a glow cycle is started (by the glow controller, which is the display unit in this model) as soon as you move the switch to ON.

Hope you are right about the clutch switch but it's odd that the jumper you tried early on didn't work.

 

[woolyAcres]

You folks have been GREAT!
When I locked the clutch in place and retested the switch terminals I got a tiny reading but no beep on the Greenlee multimeter. Perhaps we have a winner. The local Kioti dealer (35 minutes away) has a clutch switch in stock so I think I will pick it up and see if that is the solution.

Can you remove the switch and short the wires that lead to it? Basically by-pass the switch to see if it will start? I'd say if you remove and by-pass the switch and it starts (be careful not to run yourself over); you've got your winner. Would be nice to know before buying another new part.

 

[ritcheyvs]

Can you remove the switch and short the wires that lead to it? Basically by-pass the switch to see if it will start? I'd say if you remove and by-pass the switch and it starts (be careful not to run yourself over); you've got your winner. Would be nice to know before buying another new part.

He tried the jumper in post 12. Maybe the wires just didn't make contact? I'm with you on this (test lots, buy once) but the temptation to jump at a promising solution is strong. I hope he was able to cancel his order for a new starter. I do recall reading about at least one failure of the safety switch so maybe that's it. Testing continuity (vs voltages) is safer (less chance of a short) but less reliable. For example, one of the 12v wires could be shorted to ground and continuity would still test OK.