Compact Tractors are Designed All Wrong

[MultiMow]

Speaking of buckets...

We have some pretty hard ground in my parts. Even with teeth on the edge, cutting in with less than a 75-80hp skid steer is pretty much scratching (CUTs need not apply, without a plow or ripper).

I've tossed around the idea of bucket with a hydraulic buster spool on the front (think power rake/"Harley rake")... pretty much making a scaled down pan grader for lighter skid steers, CUTs, and Sub-compacts.

What do you guys think?

Yeah, I know... it's going to put a dent in the capacity.... but for the guy who already has a lighter duty solution, it would eliminate the need to make two passes, and leave a smoother finish.

Worth a shot, or still-born idea?

 

[GirlWhoWantsTractor]

Speaking of buckets...

We have some pretty hard ground in my parts. Even with teeth on the edge, cutting in with less than a 75-80hp skid steer is pretty much scratching (CUTs need not apply, without a plow or ripper).

I've tossed around the idea of bucket with a hydraulic buster spool on the front (think power rake/"Harley rake")... pretty much making a scaled down pan grader for lighter skid steers, CUTs, and Sub-compacts.

What do you guys think?

Yeah, I know... it's going to put a dent in the capacity.... but for the guy who already has a lighter duty solution, it would eliminate the need to make two passes, and leave a smoother finish.

Worth a shot, or still-born idea?

I'm in your neck of the woods, and my Piranha tooth bar cuts through like a knife, even through my hard pan. I was pretty surprised. Maybe your soil is even harder than mine, but it's hard to imagine. Example: a hunk of dirt once dried, I can hit it hard repeatedly with a shovel, but it won't break up. Hunk of dirt or rock? Only way to tell is to pick it up. Rocks are heavier for their size.

The HD box blade with scarifiers all the way down also breaks it up with no problem.

My clay soil works a lot easier when slightly moist.

 

[MossRoad]

That hard soils is where a larger machine comes in handy, or a smaller contact point to concentrate the weight. For example, when I was attempting to rebuild a long neglected T-Ball diamond my 1500# machine could not scratch the old, existing moon dust base (granulated limestone) with my wide, flat bladed bucket. It had been packed down for years. My smaller bucket with teeth did much better, but still, the 1500# (really about half that) spread across the teeth would still raise the front wheel off the ground. A single tooth plow share welded to a post on a quick attach plate (poor man's ripper) put all the available weight on one small point.

 

[Xfaxman]

That hard soils is where a larger machine comes in handy, ------------------------------------------

Yep, the Toolcat is 5' wide and the 1 cubic yard bucket is 6' wide, and has bolt on teeth:

 

[MossRoad]

And how much weight can you bring to bear on those teeth if the front wheels are off the ground? Tons! :thumbsup:

 

[Xfaxman]

Right.

 

[4570Man]

And how much weight can you bring to bear on those teeth if the front wheels are off the ground? Tons! :thumbsup:

Not very much. Most loaders aren’t very heavy on the front end. I doubt my Kubota CTL has 500 pounds on the front end plus the bucket. My buddies gehl SS was even lighter. Without a bucket on you have to make easy moves or it wheelies.

 

[gladehound]

It's not always the size of the machine but instead the sharpness of the bucket. We borrowed a 20,000 pound track loader from a neighbor to cut in a driveway. The track loader couldn't make a dent. We tried my cousin's JD4300 (~5500 pounds w BH & loader) with a fresh, sharp cutting edge and it cut right through. The 20,000 pound machine was well used and the thick cutting edge was worn such that it was like trying to push a 1+" thick round bar into the ground. The JD4300 cutting edge came to a point and cut right in. The weight of the machine is less important than the pressure applied to the ground.

 

[4570Man]

It's not always the size of the machine but instead the sharpness of the bucket. We borrowed a 20,000 pound track loader from a neighbor to cut in a driveway. The track loader couldn't make a dent. We tried my cousin's JD4300 (~5500 pounds w BH & loader) with a fresh, sharp cutting edge and it cut right through. The 20,000 pound machine was well used and the thick cutting edge was worn such that it was like trying to push a 1+" thick round bar into the ground. The JD4300 cutting edge came to a point and cut right in. The weight of the machine is less important than the pressure applied to the ground.

Which is why a tooth bucket is way better than a straight one for digging.

 

[MultiMow]

I don't know what you'd call what we have here. It looks like potter's clay... a light tan color, with a slight red hue. It's not clay (I'm sure it has a little in it... but it doesn't behave like clay). It never gets that sticky stage when wet. I goes straight from hard as a brick, to a soupy mess. I don't know how my wife grew enough grass for a lawn, it's so hard.

When they did the grade work for her house (long before I was around), they didn't bother to separate and recover the top soil.

Anywho... you're right, Moss... my L-series won't touch it. Just grading the driveway with the 4-way belly blade took hours. I'll give a box blade a go. I'd love to find a good used Harley rake. Problem is, they cost about $6k new... and I've never seen a serviceable used unit for less than $4,500.

 

[GirlWhoWantsTractor]

I don't know what you'd call what we have here. It looks like potter's clay... a light tan color, with a slight red hue. It's not clay (I'm sure it has a little in it... but it doesn't behave like clay). It never gets that sticky stage when wet. I goes straight from hard as a brick, to a soupy mess. I don't know how my wife grew enough grass for a lawn, it's so hard.

When they did the grade work for her house (long before I was around), they didn't bother to separate and recover the top soil.

Anywho... you're right, "GirlWhoWantsATractor"... my L-series won't touch it. Just grading the driveway with the 4-way belly blade took hours. I'll give a box blade a go. I'd love to find a good used Harley rake. Problem is, they cost about $6k new... and I've never seen a serviceable used unit for less than $4,500.

Dude, I have the same kind of dirt; unimproved, it's a clay pot. How to tell if you have clay soil: when it's moist squeeze some in your hand; if it holds its shape it's clay soil.

To work it, the moisture level is key. It has to be just moist enough to work; not too wet, but not too dry. Too dry it's like concrete. Too wet you can't even walk on it without slipping. I have VERY FEW days when the soil is workable. Yep, potter's clay is about right. Actually grass doesn't mind it (this dirt is quite mineral-rich, just lacking in organic material) and once you get something growing on top, it's amazing how the soil improves. You might have a lot of sand in yours. You're technically in "ridge and valley" whereas I'm in "southern blue ridge" and there are some differences geologically. You guys have way more trilobites, for one thing.

 

[Creamer]

Okay, here's my revised list:

I have a small frame CUT, a large frame CUT and a Simplicity Conquest mower (may upgrade to a SCUT if I stumble across a bargain). In my dreams, I would also have:

• A Skidsteer
• A Telehandler (for the cool factor alone)
• A John Deere 3010 Diesel
• A Powertrac (for the cute factor alone)
• A Toolcat so I can haul things and ride around
• A Mini Excavator so I can mini excavate

A skidsteer would never make my list unless I was always working in a lot or on concrete - the ground tear up never stops. Then if you are working on concrete all the time the tires do not last.

I can see the PowerTrac as a very handy machine and the older I get the very easy on/off is looking better and better. My 1710 is a wonderful piece of equipment but a load in the bucket will make the 7.50 -16 front tires sink when it is wet and the PT system would not do that. So for hobby farms or around the place work the PT would be very handy. But I wouldn't be handling the logs and 3 pt loads I am handling with it. There is always a tradeoff.

 

[MossRoad]

A skidsteer would never make my list unless I was always working in a lot or on concrete - the ground tear up never stops. Then if you are working on concrete all the time the tires do not last.

I can see the PowerTrac as a very handy machine and the older I get the very easy on/off is looking better and better. My 1710 is a wonderful piece of equipment but a load in the bucket will make the 7.50 -16 front tires sink when it is wet and the PT system would not do that. So for hobby farms or around the place work the PT would be very handy. But I wouldn't be handling the logs and 3 pt loads I am handling with it. There is always a tradeoff.

Just out of curiosity, how big of logs are you handling? There's several sizes and styles of PTs.

 

[MultiMow]

Dude, I have the same kind of dirt; unimproved, it's a clay pot. How to tell if you have clay soil: when it's moist squeeze some in your hand; if it holds its shape it's clay soil.

To work it, the moisture level is key. It has to be just moist enough to work; not too wet, but not too dry. Too dry it's like concrete. Too wet you can't even walk on it without slipping. I have VERY FEW days when the soil is workable. Yep, potter's clay is about right. Actually grass doesn't mind it (this dirt is quite mineral-rich, just lacking in organic material) and once you get something growing on top, it's amazing how the soil improves. You might have a lot of sand in yours. You're technically in "ridge and valley" whereas I'm in "southern blue ridge" and there are some differences geologically. You guys have way more trilobites, for one thing.

This doesn't behave like clay. I grew up on clay. This stuff will never hold shape. Like I said... it's either brick hard, or soup... no in between.

 

[MultiMow]

Just out of curiosity, how big of logs are you handling? There's several sizes and styles of PTs.

Small logging operations were the only places I'd seen PTs in person, aside from a handful of state/municipal mowing fleets. The small logging equipment industry has seen several new brands/units over the last few years... and most seem to be gravitating away from the PT. It seems they're either going with Avant/MultiOne/JCB articulated units, or non-traction pull-behind units. I don't know why. Flotation is a huge selling point in logging, regardless of the size of the operation. The PT with a dual wheel kit has MUCH better flotation than the mainstream units at half the price. I guess it's the wider selection of native brand attachments for the Avant/MultiOne style offerings.

As for "pull-behind"/"dedicated trailer" unpropelled equipment... I don't really get it. Their price point is exorbitant, to say the least. The skid trailer with grapple that I priced about 3-years back was $15k. The skinner unit was over $20k... which granted, was $40k less than a kitted excavator, and $60k less than the smallest dedicated self-propelled harvester.

I know we're not talking about the home/property owner handling a couple trees... but the conversation led to a valid point. To me, PT would shine in small logging operations with a little expansion of their attachment line.

 

[GirlWhoWantsTractor]

This doesn't behave like clay. I grew up on clay. This stuff will never hold shape. Like I said... it's either brick hard, or soup... no in between.

My clay soil has a ton of partially decomposed bedrock, called "saprolite"; this gives it at times a very grainy texture. Mine also has a lot of yellow ochre (same stuff they make yellow paint out of) which can give it a yellow color. And quite a bit of red ochre too. That's ferric oxide. A lot of red clay soils like the famous red Georgia clay, are full of iron oxides. So yes it can be different from the standard southeastern red clay. Yours sounds like it might be "sapric" soil, which is the most highly decomposed form of soil, meaning particle size is extremely small; it is literally called "muck." It has a very low water content at saturation, which means it goes from dry to slick with no in-between.

 

[MultiMow]

My clay soil has a ton of partially decomposed bedrock, called "saprolite"; this gives it at times a very grainy texture. Mine also has a lot of yellow ochre (same stuff they make yellow paint out of) which can give it a yellow color. And quite a bit of red ochre too. That's ferric oxide. A lot of red clay soils like the famous red Georgia clay, are full of iron oxides. So yes it can be different from the standard southeastern red clay. Yours sounds like it might be "sapric" soil, which is the most highly decomposed form of soil, meaning particle size is extremely small; it is literally called "muck." It has a very low water content at saturation, which means it goes from dry to slick with no in-between.

Yep... it's pretty useless for anything without a deep root. You know the fine silty dust from a diet road?.... pretty much what I have. Very little nutrient content. Nearly hydrophobic. For anything that's established, it holds great on a slope... cause most water runs off and it doesn't erode.

 

[GirlWhoWantsTractor]

Yep... it's pretty useless for anything without a deep root. You know the fine silty dust from a diet road?.... pretty much what I have. Very little nutrient content. Nearly hydrophobic. For anything that's established, it holds great on a slope... cause most water runs off and it doesn't erode.

Yep, sure sounds right. So that's why you can't squeeze it and have it hold its shape. It's either dust, brick, or muck. So at least you know what you have. Sapric soil is still technically *clay* soil, just super-super-fine and lacking any kind of organic matter. You can improve it by throwing *anything* on top--compost, wood chips, or any kind of material. Or growing grass on it and mowing and leaving the clippings. But yeah, not great soil, for sure. Depending on what lies beneath, might actually benefit from a bit of scarifying as well. Color probably comes from yellow ochre, which is also super-super-fine. We have a lot of it in Southwestern Virginia, in fact there are several yellow ochre mines in the area.

 

[MultiMow]

Yep, sure sounds right. So that's why you can't squeeze it and have it hold its shape. It's either dust, brick, or muck. So at least you know what you have. Sapric soil is still technically *clay* soil, just super-super-fine and lacking any kind of organic matter. You can improve it by throwing *anything* on top--compost, wood chips, or any kind of material. Or growing grass on it and mowing and leaving the clippings. But yeah, not great soil, for sure. Depending on what lies beneath, might actually benefit from a bit of scarifying as well. Color probably comes from yellow ochre, which is also super-super-fine. We have a lot of it in Southwestern Virginia, in fact there are several yellow ochre mines in the area.

Next set of bed springs I see laying around, will surely end up chained to the back of my mower.

 

[GirlWhoWantsTractor]

Next set of bed springs I see laying around, will surely end up chained to the back of my mower.

I meant a deeper scarifying than that. There may be better soil not too far underneath.