DK 40 Starter Question

[drjay9051]

In the past I have had a bad relay for the starter. i believe that is the proper terminology for the small black box on the firewall. My nearest dealer (60 miles) suggested jumping the 2 terminals of the starter with a screwdriver till i got new relay. Worked like a charm .

Not really clear on terminology as I am a veterinarian and fix animals not tractors.

Today another starter problem. It sounds like the relay clicks but no start when I turn key. tractor in neutral, PTO off.

I tried to jump the starter terminals and initially i get the same sound as last jump but then nothing. Almost sounds like the starter is "seized up".

Best description is when i jump I get the Clicking/grinding sound as starter turns but after a second just seems to strain. I have a noise but not clicking.

Any thoughts on this?

If sounds like starter would be cheaper to buy starter for $100 as opposed to house call from dealer. If not starter I guess I am stuck with a new starter that maybe I can sell?

 

[gimmodog]

sounds like a dead battery

 

[drjay9051]

Horn, lights work but it's a thought. I'll check it out.

 

[grsthegreat]

I agree with battery issue. You need to test battery under a load while starting. ive had batteries showing 12.4 volts resting...but drop to 5 during a start.

 

[Kioti Paul]

I agree with gimmodog, it sounds like it is time for a new battery. Try turning on the headlights, then do the "jump" trick; if the headlights get real dim (but do not go completely out), I would say the odds are overwhelming that your battery is shot, or been drained for some reason. If the lights do go out completely (immediately, not a 'slow fade out') you may well have a corroded connection at one of the battery cable connections,,,or it might still be from a bad battery.

From the given symptoms, you can't rule out something wrong with the charging circuit; or, like you say, the starter itself (would be VERY unusual). Maybe a switch was left on, & drained the battery??

It is very difficult to give sound advice, when you can't actually 'get your hands' on the tractor. If you are not familiar with performing voltage drop checks, it comes down to "best guess". At this point, if your battery is more than a couple of years old, bad battery would be my "best guess".

Also, the small black box you referenced on the firewall is the starter relay. There is (probably) another one right beside it?? These relays are identical, the second one operates your glow plugs. In a pinch, you can "swap" those relays, to see if it 'restores' your starting ability. Being from Florida, you could probably get by without the glow plugs until you can get a new relay. (If you have a strong battery).

I have read in several of these threads that these are very common relays, available at most any Auto Parts Store. Take the bad one in, & see if you can find a 'good' counter person who will take the time to match up the plug. So far, I have not had one fail, so I can't offer advice on brand and part number of the relay.

 

[Coyote machine]

In vet terminology, the tractor is a 7 year old dog. You check to make sure its heart has blood flowing and the dog is breathing, right? Dog heart = tractor battery.

Either test the battery in place, by using a VOM, (volt/ohm,meter) set at 12 Volts DC and see what reading you get at the battery POSTS, NOT the cable ends attached to the battery, with the ignition key in off position and note the reading, (+/- 12 V or less, then read the voltage when the key is turned to and held momentarily at crank position.
You will have to have someone hold the meter on the battery posts while you, or they turn the key. If the voltage drops way low, as stated already, turn off the key and look for corrosion where the negative battery cable fastens to the chassis/frame of the tractor. If no corrosion is visible and none is present just below the plastic sheathing of the cable, then remove the battery and take it to a auto store to have it charged up and then load tested after it sits for 1/2 hour minimum. If the battery fails replace it with an Interstate of same size and CCA and other specs as the original battery.

So without a good flow of 'blood', a dog dies; the tractor won't start, is dead without adequate reserve amps, (current) to 'flow' from the battery to the starter to crank over the engine. When a battery gets old the useful life diminishes, and if there is high resistance at the ground and or positive cables going to/from the battery, (clogged arteries, in dog speak) the heart (tractor battery) may not/doesn't have enough electrical energy to crank over the starter.

You've been helping jump start your tractor's starter by using a screwdriver to make a 'better' electrical connection at the starter, and it's worked until the electrical circuit has not been able to produce enough juice to spin the starter. Most likely suspect: worn out/worn down/dead battery, and or connections, (cables) going to it or other parts of the ignition circuit, relay(s), etc.

The good news is, the dog will live once you repair/replace the defective component.
Victory for all! Good save doc!:thumbsup:

 

[drjay9051]

In vet terminology, the tractor is a 7 year old dog. You check to make sure its heart has blood flowing and the dog is breathing, right? Dog heart = tractor battery.

Either test the battery in place, by using a VOM, (volt/ohm,meter) set at 12 Volts DC and see what reading you get at the battery POSTS, NOT the cable ends attached to the battery, with the ignition key in off position and note the reading, (+/- 12 V or less, then read the voltage when the key is turned to and held momentarily at crank position.
You will have to have someone hold the meter on the battery posts while you, or they turn the key. If the voltage drops way low, as stated already, turn off the key and look for corrosion where the negative battery cable fastens to the chassis/frame of the tractor. If no corrosion is visible and none is present just below the plastic sheathing of the cable, then remove the battery and take it to a auto store to have it charged up and then load tested after it sits for 1/2 hour minimum. If the battery fails replace it with an Interstate of same size and CCA and other specs as the original battery.

So without a good flow of 'blood', a dog dies; the tractor won't start, is dead without adequate reserve amps, (current) to 'flow' from the battery to the starter to crank over the engine. When a battery gets old the useful life diminishes, and if there is high resistance at the ground and or positive cables going to/from the battery, (clogged arteries, in dog speak) the heart (tractor battery) may not/doesn't have enough electrical energy to crank over the starter.

You've been helping jump start your tractor's starter by using a screwdriver to make a 'better' electrical connection at the starter, and it's worked until the electrical circuit has not been able to produce enough juice to spin the starter. Most likely suspect: worn out/worn down/dead battery, and or connections, (cables) going to it or other parts of the ignition circuit, relay(s), etc.

The good news is, the dog will live once you repair/replace the defective component.
Victory for all! Good save doc!:thumbsup:

Appreciate the analogy.

Surgery scheduled for tomorrow ( cardiac transplant)

Thanks

 

[ritcheyvs]

Do yourself a favor and isolate the problem before wasting money (and someone's time) replacing a starter that's probably OK. Many starting problems have been reported here and I don't recall any that were actually a bad starter. I would guess you have a bad battery or corroded battery cable (typically under the insulation where you can't see it). Good advice above, especially watching headlights while trying to run starter and voltmeter on battery posts while trying to start.

 

[swnoel]

What did you find out? It would be nice if those that start these threads would be so kind to come back and respond to what solved the problem.

 

[northcreek2624]

My money is on a bad starter, you have all the symptoms. The starter armature may be dragging the fields due to bad bushings (main cause of starter failures), this causes high amps which will kill a relay. On the gear models (don't know about HST) there is a drain plug below the clutch to drain trapped water. If this is left unattended under the right conditions you might submerge the starter and that can never be good.

 

[fried1765]

In vet terminology, the tractor is a 7 year old dog. You check to make sure its heart has blood flowing and the dog is breathing, right? Dog heart = tractor battery.

Either test the battery in place, by using a VOM, (volt/ohm,meter) set at 12 Volts DC and see what reading you get at the battery POSTS, NOT the cable ends attached to the battery, with the ignition key in off position and note the reading, (+/- 12 V or less, then read the voltage when the key is turned to and held momentarily at crank position.
You will have to have someone hold the meter on the battery posts while you, or they turn the key. If the voltage drops way low, as stated already, turn off the key and look for corrosion where the negative battery cable fastens to the chassis/frame of the tractor. If no corrosion is visible and none is present just below the plastic sheathing of the cable, then remove the battery and take it to a auto store to have it charged up and then load tested after it sits for 1/2 hour minimum. If the battery fails replace it with an Interstate of same size and CCA and other specs as the original battery.

So without a good flow of 'blood', a dog dies; the tractor won't start, is dead without adequate reserve amps, (current) to 'flow' from the battery to the starter to crank over the engine. When a battery gets old the useful life diminishes, and if there is high resistance at the ground and or positive cables going to/from the battery, (clogged arteries, in dog speak) the heart (tractor battery) may not/doesn't have enough electrical energy to crank over the starter.

You've been helping jump start your tractor's starter by using a screwdriver to make a 'better' electrical connection at the starter, and it's worked until the electrical circuit has not been able to produce enough juice to spin the starter. Most likely suspect: worn out/worn down/dead battery, and or connections, (cables) going to it or other parts of the ignition circuit, relay(s), etc.

The good news is, the dog will live once you repair/replace the defective component.
Victory for all! Good save doc!:thumbsup:

All good advice....except .... for the overpriced Interstate battery!

 

[k0ua]

Of the dozens (hundreds?) of my Kioti won't start threads, I don't believe I have ever heard of a defective starter. I can honestly say, "it ain't the starter" with some really good chance of being right. It is defective starter relay, defective battery cables, defective battery, defective key switch probably in that order. Starter might come in at about the 1/100 th reason. Yes, they can be defective, but not too often.

I do believe I could make a fortune traveling around to peoples tractors that won't start equipped with my trusty voltmeter and diagnosing the problem for them.

 

[Coyote machine]

All good advice....except .... for the overpriced Interstate battery!

To each his own. Full disclosure, FWIW, I owned a independent foreign auto repair and sales shop for the better part of 10 years. In that time I was a selling dealer for Interstate batteries. I have dealt with all kinds of batteries for all kinds of equipment and currently own Interstate as original equipment in the following: 1 in my DK-40, 1 in my Kioti UTV, 1 in my Suzuki ATV, 2 in my Mako boat, 1 in my Pro-Z, 1 in each of 3 Toyota SUVs, 1 in Honda CRV, 1 in Briggs 20kW propane generator,1 in Kohler 14kW propane generator, 1 in Dr. trimmer/mower and 1 in Dr. field/brush mower, 1 in my Husky 333t AWD mower. I might have forgotten to list something in all the confusion, but I rarely have ANY battery issues with any of the above, with the possible exception of when one has reached it's useful life expectancy. Most of the above are lead acid, and a number of them are AGM.
I do get, and I didn't even know this until I ran into the Interstate distributor, a discount for having been a former dealer. I closed my shop in 1987 and have been buying batteries since then, but only found out about the discount fairly recently, say 5 years ago. Nonetheless, I also found out they sell blems, marked as such with a shorter warranty, to anyone who chooses to save money.

My point in the above statement is that a lot of companies similar to Interstate make a great product for a certain price point. My professional and consumer experience is that they deserve better than a random 'overpriced' label with no data to support the comment.
Buy what one likes, it makes no difference to my bottom line. Just don't brand slam without evidence to be credible.

 

[drjay9051]

Sorry for not checking back after starting thread. Very fair point. i have been out of town. Got back last night.

Took battery to Discount Auto. they put it on charge for 30 minutes and said it has "no reserve".

So i spent 125 on a battery. Just installed. No relay click with key turn so i jumped the terminals with screwdriver. Same symptoms.

Starter turns for maybe a second then just whines. Not a grinding sound. Have not checked along cable, yet.

Here is a link to video with my issue.

Sound like corrosion along cable preventing starter from continuing to turn or a bad starter?

Well at least I now have a new battery.

218127 95157 1 2 - YouTube

Thanks

 

[ritcheyvs]

OK, I think you are doing it wrong based on the sparks I saw in the video. Do not short between the two big threaded lugs. Short between the big threaded lug on the solenoid (where the battery cable connects) and the small spade terminal on the solenoid. You can do this with medium size wire; the current going to the spade lug isn't that great. Check out this description.

Your battery and cable are probably OK now. But you need to apply power to that small solenoid spade connector (not just the motor) for the solenoid to drive the starter pinion gear to engage the flywheel. Otherwise, the starter motor just spins (no load) without driving the flywheel,,as in your video which was helpful.

When you jumper it the right way I think you will find the starter will crank fine. But then you need to find a problem in the control circuitry that is preventing the 12v crank signal from getting to the starter solenoid. I would start by checking the relay, a common failure item. The HST models are more complex with a variable resistor (potentiometer) to sense when in neutral and an electronic module that enables the relay (gear version is just switches and relays). Is your neutral light indicating you are in neutral? Kioti used more than one version, I think. What is the build year (or first digit of serial number) of your tractor.

 

[cabin kioti]

Wow a lot of sparks. Sounds like the starter motor is working but for some reason not engaging the starter gear to the flywheel. If it was me I would pull the starter and check the starter drive gear. could be a bad gear. broken pin. or a bad starter dendix drive.

 

[cabin kioti]

on all my equipment with the sound on your video it was always the starter Bendix drive gear. I do not know if one can be purchased seperatly. Good luck

 

[drjay9051]

Bendix shemndix

Ritchesvs was on the money. Glad i did not go spend yet another $100 on starter.

I was jumping starter the wrong way. At least I did not fry anything.

Key off jump + and spade terminal cranks like a champ

Key on jump + and spade: Starts right up.

Looks like I need a new relay. I believe there is an identical relay on the firewall that goes to glow plug?

Don't need that in Florida but if a relay is all of say $20 I'll go get one.

In the interim I'll keep jumper wire in the DK

Thanks everybody for your help.
Lessons learned
1. Don't buy a battery you don't need
2. Don't buy a starter you don't need
Don't jump starter the wrong way.

Thanks again.

 

[k0ua]

Bendix shemndix

Ritchesvs was on the money. Glad i did not go spend yet another $100 on starter.

I was jumping starter the wrong way. At least I did not fry anything.

Key off jump + and spade terminal cranks like a champ

Key on jump + and spade: Starts right up.

Looks like I need a new relay. I believe there is an identical relay on the firewall that goes to glow plug?

Don't need that in Florida but if a relay is all of say $20 I'll go get one.

In the interim I'll keep jumper wire in the DK

Thanks everybody for your help.
Lessons learned
1. Don't buy a battery you don't need
2. Don't buy a starter you don't need
Don't jump starter the wrong way.

Thanks again.

If I remember corectly, the Glow plug relay is different than the other two. One is starter relay and the other is fuel solenoid relay. If it is the relay, you can swap them and it will crank, but not start if the starter relay is bad, because now the fuel solenoid is not being activated. (1 second pull pulse and then the fuel solenoid hold coil runs off of the key buss.). The relays are common and available at auto parts stores for about 1/5 of the tractor dealer price.

 

[drjay9051]

If I remember corectly, the Glow plug relay is different than the other two. One is starter relay and the other is fuel solenoid relay. If it is the relay, you can swap them and it will crank, but not start if the starter relay is bad, because now the fuel solenoid is not being activated. (1 second pull pulse and then the fuel solenoid hold coil runs off of the key buss.). The relays are common and available at auto parts stores for about 1/5 of the tractor dealer price.

$7.27 on Amazon !!