Kioti DK4210 FEL won't lift and curl or drop and dump at same time

[K5lwq]

The only thing that keeps me from being 100% convinced it is the valve is the OP stated the movement speed of the loader was slow. I would not think that it would be very slow at 9GPM.

 

[ovrszd]

Again, that could be the valve.

 

[K5lwq]

Again, that could be the valve.

Agreed. Not knowing this particular system and what valve they used, I would want to do some more testing or research before spending money on a new valve for a new machine. If, by the slim chance, it is a pump issue or a priority valve problem, a new valve may not yield the results the OP is wanting.

 

[npalen]

Too bad there isn't a simple way to get full pump gallonage output at low engine RPM. Can't imagine how it would be done other than with some type of compensating variable speed drive (electric?) on the pump. Probably would involve variable PSI output also to avoid stalling the engine at low speed.

 

[oldnslo]

Too bad there isn't a simple way to get full pump gallonage output at low engine RPM. Can't imagine how it would be done other than with some type of compensating variable speed drive (electric?) on the pump. Probably would involve variable PSI output also to avoid stalling the engine at low speed.

You can do this mechanically but it would very costly and highly inefficent. An example is the steering system on Kubota BX models. They have a single pump with a priority flow control. The priority flow control maintains steering flow regardless of the engine speed. On the BX the remaining flow is used for implements but it could be used for other functions. Still not a very efficient system.

Another way would be a large pressure comp pump with either load sense or electronic displacement. This could also provide a fixed flow over a large RPM range. Expensive large pump and controls would make this cost prohibitive for CUTs.

 

[oldnslo]

Agreed. Not knowing this particular system and what valve they used, I would want to do some more testing or research before spending money on a new valve for a new machine. If, by the slim chance, it is a pump issue or a priority valve problem, a new valve may not yield the results the OP is wanting.

Agree and agree,
simple time the cylinder stroke test back on post #19 will provide instant answers on how much flow is going to the cylinders.

 

[RNeumann]

One of the variables not discussed is the OPs two choices of loaders. One “faster” and one “slower”. I assume the slower one has bigger cylinders and more lift but that’s just an assumption. I wondering out loud if that change or difference had anything to do with the issue.....probably not but I’ll ask anyway.

 

[K5lwq]

Yes, do the test in post #19. A great place to start!

 

[Coyote machine]

Curious what RPMs is the tractor at when the OP is trying to feather in two functions at once? Is 1800-2K being used for regular RPM speed for most tasks?

 

[ovrszd]

Curious what RPMs is the tractor at when the OP is trying to feather in two functions at once? Is 1800-2K being used for regular RPM speed for most tasks?

If it's valved and plumbed to do two functions at once adding rpms will only speed the process. It will still have the ability at idle. Just slower.

 

[mikester]

While I have no experience with Kioti, I suspect what you are experiencing is normal operation. If you run a Kubota loader for any length of time, you will be disappointed with most other compact loader valves. John Deere CUTS/SCUTS have almost no 都weet spot for getting two loader functions to operate simultaneously either.

Agreed, It's not a defect, it's just the way the tractors were designed. Cheap and cheerful.

I think you will find that more SCUTs/CUTs can't do two functions simultaneously than can. FYI some older tractors had no down pressure on the loaders - they relied on gravity.

Generally larger tractors have more hydraulic flow and can do two functions at the same time.

 

[Coyote machine]

If it's valved and plumbed to do two functions at once adding rpms will only speed the process. It will still have the ability at idle. Just slower.

That makes sense; I was thinking the OP's issue was speed of FEL function rather than ability to perform two functions at once. My bad. Guess I should go to bed earlier, rather than 'think' at 1:30 AM! :confused3:

Valve/plumbing makes sense, as does the likely possibility that some CUT/SCUT mfg's want to cut costs to bare bone to be competitive in their line of tractors, so they would tend to offer less robust features on the smaller units: less features = less expensive valves, smaller capacity hydraulic pumps and reservoirs, etc.

Curious if adding a better valve with ability to do multiple tasks would necessitate having different plumbing than OEM, and a larger hydraulic capacity? Essentially could the 'advanced valve' functions create a situation where the valve is able to outpace the pump's ability to supply adequate fluid from the OEM designed capacity present in the hydraulic tank?

 

[K5lwq]

That makes sense; I was thinking the OP's issue was speed of FEL function rather than ability to perform two functions at once. My bad. Guess I should go to bed earlier, rather than 'think' at 1:30 AM! :confused3:

Valve/plumbing makes sense, as does the likely possibility that some CUT/SCUT mfg's want to cut costs to bare bone to be competitive in their line of tractors, so they would tend to offer less robust features on the smaller units: less features = less expensive valves, smaller capacity hydraulic pumps and reservoirs, etc.

Curious if adding a better valve with ability to do multiple tasks would necessitate having different plumbing than OEM, and a larger hydraulic capacity? Essentially could the 'advanced valve' functions create a situation where the valve is able to outpace the pump's ability to supply adequate fluid from the OEM designed capacity present in the hydraulic tank?

Are you able to use two functions at the same time? Looks like the specs are very similar between the OP's tractor and yours. Same pump flow.

 

[Coyote machine]

Are you able to use two functions at the same time? Looks like the specs are very similar between the OP's tractor and yours. Same pump flow.

I do believe so. I'm fairly sure my '10 DK-40se/hst does allow 2 functions at same time but you do have to pay attention to what you are trying to accomplish. If lifting a heavy bucket load and trying to curl the bucket at the same time, it will work, but one needs to pay attention to the load and so on to not get ahead of oneself if also wanting to move the load from one pile to another, or to dump it at the second location for instance. I've got a 2nd pair of rear remotes and a diverter valve plumed into the hydraulics which allows me to run my backhoe, and or a front snow plow or grapple via my FEL stick to which I added a joystick handle in place of the factory knob. The stick has a pull switch, that allows for L -> R, plow swing, and/or open ~ close of the grapple jaws. I've never felt the movement of dual functions was too slow, and my BH-2485, the biggest hoe Kioti offers runs off the OEM 1st pair of rear remotes, no problems; digs to nearly 8', IIRC. Hope this helps. :thumbsup:

 

[The Highlander]

The overall speed that the loader operates will vary with engine RPM (and thus Hydraulic pump output)

The sweet spots for getting 2 functions at once is very small and the farther you move the stick the smaller they get.

More expensive valves (like those on larger tractors, construction equipment, etc) use a piloted valve that allows a portion of the incoming flow to be directly routed downstream even when the valve is open/operating thus leaving flow for the next valve / function. Most SCUT/CUT hydraulic systems use a simple valve that dumps all the available fluid into the open/operating function. In order to have any leftover flow for the next valve you need (1) High RPM / high system flow and (2) a very light touch to only partially open the valve.

And FWIW - this get's magnified even more once you add a 3rd function valve for ..say a grapple. Can't open/close and curl/dump at the same time but you get used to it.

When we bought our CK35 - I was expecting construction grade performance but after running it a while either I have adjusted and don't notice it or don't really need 2 functions at once as much as I thought. Your needs may be different.

Even when the grapple function is not being used?

 

[ovrszd]

Even when the grapple function is not being used?

With some valve setups, yes.

 

[The Highlander]

Could ypu explain why? I am having this issue after the 3rd function install.

 

[ovrszd]

I am in no way a hydraulic expert.

I know there are two types of FEL control valves. Some will do both functions at the same time. Some will not.

In regards to your situation. Are you saying your FEL would do both functions before you installed 3rd function and now eill not?

 

[The Highlander]

Correct

 

[K5lwq]

What kind of third function did you install and how did you plumb it?

A series valve will only allow one function at a time. A series/parallel valve will allow multiple functions as long as there is enough flow. Installing a valve further down stream should not change anything with regard to this. Something else might be going on.