More Horsepower, Same Cubic Inches?

   / More Horsepower, Same Cubic Inches? #1  

B2400

Platinum Member
Joined
Jun 13, 2003
Messages
585
Location
Western Illinois
Tractor
2016 B2650 ROPS, 1998 B2400 (sold!)
While looking at the specs for the new B2630, I noticed it uses the same cubic inch engine as the B2400,7610,2410 series. The only differences I see are: 7610 uses D1105-E-D16 series engine and the 2630 uses the D1105-E2-21 series. Both engines are 68.5 CID, but the 2630 is rated at 26hp@2800rpm verses 24hp@2600rpm. Anyone have an idea what internal changes were made to up the HP or are 200rpm worth 2hp? If it's only RPM, it mght be time to turn up the pump!!! /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
   / More Horsepower, Same Cubic Inches? #2  
It's most likely the pump and engine speed. From a manufacturing standpoint, it would be cost prohibitive to make every D1105 engine with different internals, just for a 2-4 hp difference.
 
   / More Horsepower, Same Cubic Inches? #3  
I noticed the B3030 has 23 PTO horsepower at the same RPMs as the B2910 which has 22 PTO horsepower.
Sure would be great if all that was required is a little tweaking of the pump.
 
   / More Horsepower, Same Cubic Inches?
  • Thread Starter
#4  
It would be interesting to know what they did for the 2hp gain. As you said,it could be in the pump output or timing or possibly up the compression a hair maybe? We need input from one of the interested Kub mechanics!!! Inquiring minds would love to know!!! /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
 
   / More Horsepower, Same Cubic Inches? #5  
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Anyone have an idea what internal changes were made to up the HP or are 200rpm worth 2hp? )</font>

Here's a quick review of Force, Work, and Power that might help explain what's going on here. Force is a measurement of how much push or pull we're applying. Say you have a really big turkey sitting on your counter, and it weighs 55 pounds, then its pushing against the counter with 55 pounds of force.

Now, if you lift the bird up one foot, you will have performed some work, 55 foot pounds of work to be specific. Now power is a measure of fast we can work. Way back when, James Watt came up with a measurement called Horsepower. His definition is 550 foot pounds per second. So if you lift the 55 pound bird up one foot in one second, you'd be developping 1/10 Horsepower.

Now if you were able to lift 10 of those turkeys up at the same time 1 foot in one second, then you'd be developping 1 horsepower, because you'd be doing 550 foot pounds of work per second.

Now, if your not quite that strong to lift the 550 pounds all at once, you could still develop one horsepower, if you can be fast. To do that, you'd need to lift the 55 pounds up one foot in a tenth of a second.

With engines, we're turning the crankshaft, and the amount of twisting force we get is called torque. In fact, when you add those performance mod.s to your tractor, and then have it dyno'd, the dynamometer is actually measuring torque. Its typically measured in foot pounds, and there's a formula that lets you convert torque to horsepower, its:

Horsepower = torque * revs/minute * 1/5252

So, is 200 rpm worth 2 horsepower? It depends on the torque. Using the formula above, 200 rpm will develop 2 horsepower if the torque is about 52.5 foot pounds. I believe this is in line with the torque numbers for the engines you've listed. I have a diesel car, and it develops 90 horsepower at 3750 rpm. That means I'm getting about 126 foot pounds of torque at that speed. If I could get another 200 rpm at the same 126 foot pounds of torque, I'd get a boost of almost 5 horsepower.

Bottom line, there's something called the torque curve:
horsepower2.gif

I borrowed the image above from howstuffworks.com. When your idling, you're not making much torque. As you increase the throttle, the RPMs go up, and the the torque goes up. It's pretty rapid at first, but then it flattens out and starts to drop off. If you want to get more horsepower out of the same displacement, you need to try and make that torque curve flat through higher RPMs. To do that, you have to get more fuel into those cylinders. But you have to be careful, because more fuel means more force and more heat. Too much, and you burn a hole in a piston, or you break a connecting rod, etc. So, Kubota must have addressed these issues with their latest engine, and they've kept the torque curve up through higher RPMs

Hope this helps, and Happy Thanksgiving.
 
   / More Horsepower, Same Cubic Inches? #6  
I suspect that the extra two hp isn't coming from ignition timing, given that diesel's don't have spark plugs or distributors. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif It's most likely the engine speed and additional fuel added by the injector pump. If you can get service manuals for each engine, you can tell if compression is the same (I suspect it will be) just by cross referencing part numbers of the head, pistons, and head gaskets.

If you can get the engine to spin a little faster, I really doubt the engine would be hurt by the additional engine speed. These little engines are built pretty heavy for the power they make, and less than 3000 RPM is practically crawling for a well designed rotating assembly.
 
   / More Horsepower, Same Cubic Inches? #7  
Horsepower may be expressed as:


hp = torque in ft-lbs * rpm / 5252

hp = horsepower, hp
t = torque, ft-lbs
rpm = engine speed, revolutions per minute

This formula says that if you can keep the same amount of torque, then the more rpm you can turn, the more horsepower you get! Just the 200-RPM difference could produce the 2 horsepower.

This is why NASCAR engines turn such incredible RPMs. The faster the engine turns, the more power it can make.

One thing to always remember is that it is torque that breaks parts, not RPM.

Another thing to remember is that most horsepower claims are marketing untruths.
 
   / More Horsepower, Same Cubic Inches? #8  
I'd say it would be due to more fuel being delivered. I'm not familiar with the engine your talking about, so I'll use the engine used in the new 4000 twenty series JD tractors.

All 4 models use the same John Deere 4024T engine, 148.9 cu. in. turbo. All 4 models have the same operating speed of 2,400 RPM. But there's a HP difference in each model.

The 4120 has 43 HP, 4320 has 48, 4520 has 53 and 4720 has 58. That's a 15 HP difference between the lowest and the highest. Everything seems to be the same so (I think) it has to be the tweaking of injector pump.
 
   / More Horsepower, Same Cubic Inches? #9  
Injection timing can give gains. Most newish diesels have retarded injection to reduce NOx emissions by decreasing peak pressures. This reduces the torque and hp.

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( I suspect that the extra two hp isn't coming from ignition timing, )</font>
 
   / More Horsepower, Same Cubic Inches? #10  
Commonly, diesels have approximately 5 degress retarded timing to account for a decrease in NOx emissions these days.

However, all you have to do is increase the injection nozzles orifices diameter a couple of microns to add mucho horsepower and gobs of torque, either that or increase the crank injection window a couple of degrees to prolong the injection event.

Installing a new injection nozzle onto the injector with larger nozzle orifices is a super simple ten minute job and works excellent. There is no need to tweak the fuel injection pump or add more injection pressure with either of these methods.

Problem is they both increase the EGT under load, smoke alot more, and violate emissions laws, but the power output increase is spectacular. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 

Tractor & Equipment Auctions

1992 Kenworth T800 Semi (A50514)
1992 Kenworth T800...
TMA (A49461)
TMA (A49461)
PAIR OF TALL STACK PIPE RACKS (A50854)
PAIR OF TALL STACK...
2018 FORD EXPEDITION (A51406)
2018 FORD...
Unused 2025 CFG QNT50R Mini Excavator (A49461)
Unused 2025 CFG...
2015 MACK ELITE LEU633 GARBAGE TRUCK (A51243)
2015 MACK ELITE...
 
Top