New Construction HVAC decisions. Geothermal vs. alternatives with upgraded envelope.

   / New Construction HVAC decisions. Geothermal vs. alternatives with upgraded envelope. #61  
Yea, me too.

True life... in a 600k home and they had the cheapest non programable DICO t-stats on the wall you can find (back then, about $20 each). Asked the guy about it and he told me it's what came with the house. What was totally mind boggling was he was really proud of his $6,000 door, but he had some of the cheapest crap you could find to heat and cool his house. I get kitchen cabinets and countertops, but some of the stuff just blows me away as people have no clue what they're getting for good home comfort system (AKA HVAC system).
 
   / New Construction HVAC decisions. Geothermal vs. alternatives with upgraded envelope.
  • Thread Starter
#62  
Isn't zoning between floors a given!? I have a ranch, so I'm not certain, but it sounds very strange that the contractors are not recommending it. I know my parents separated into basement, first floor, and bedrooms. You might also want to watch out for zoning a room with south facing windows with other rooms. My parents have one bedroom that is always MUCH warmer because it has South facing windows, but the thermostat is in another room.

That was my thought (regarding the basement), but none of them have specified it in their bids. Just a single zone with "some air in the basement." :confused2:

FWIW, my entire kitchen, living room, and master bedroom will be south facing.
 
   / New Construction HVAC decisions. Geothermal vs. alternatives with upgraded envelope. #63  
Our house originally had electric heat and a propane fired furnace and AC was added before we bought it. We then switched to GEO later on. We have only 1 zone, its a one story ranch with a full basement, and it actually works pretty good. I'm guessing they did a pretty good job of balancing the duct work when it was installed. I do wish the bedroom was cooler though.
 
   / New Construction HVAC decisions. Geothermal vs. alternatives with upgraded envelope. #64  
I do wish the bedroom was cooler though.

Generally speaking, depending on the layout of the house, the one area that should always be zoned are the bedrooms, partiuclarly the master.

So many times the one t-stat in the house for the one system is in in the hallway or living room away from the bedroom, and the owner is stuck trying to heat or cool their master bedroom but get's "stuck" at a temperature they don't like in the bedroom because they don't want to heat or cool the entire home.
 
   / New Construction HVAC decisions. Geothermal vs. alternatives with upgraded envelope. #65  
Go radiant infloor heat, you'll be so happy you did. 110-120 water temp is ideal, you will be more comfortable at a lower thermometer setting - so you'll save money. Also, your heat is at floor level where you are - not rising to the ceiling. I can see it costing a little more, but $10000 is nuts - try a different contractor. We did our house with a NG modulating boiler and indirect water heater for under $3500 (DIY). 2 zones (up & down), you can fine tune each if you need with adjusting the flow on your loops. We did each loop the same length for balanced flow and have never needed to touch (5 loops).
For your AC needs I'd go mini-split heat pump. We have a Fujitsu 33 seer. One outside unit can supply multiple inside coils. It will do heat as well which helps in the "inbetween" seasons. Also as a backup.
We are planning a new home next summer, and won't have Natural Gas available - so I've been researching the best alternative & at our current local costs Propane is very close to Geo. With much lower upfront costs.
We have high co-op electric costs & Propane is currently cheap - which can change at any time. I followed your home plan thread with interest - it made me re-think our plans. So now I'm re-doing them - thanks:)
Good luck
 
   / New Construction HVAC decisions. Geothermal vs. alternatives with upgraded envelope. #66  
Funny, just got back from a short 3 day trip up to Pennsylvania with my father.

First time in about 10 years since I spent time up at the old home around the winter time (normally I'm sweating like a pig because I'd go up in the summer and he doesn't have AC LOL). I replaced his old oil fired boiler around 94 (he bought the house around 78). Radiant infloor basement, baseboard on main floor and attic.

Came home Friday late afternoon, old T87 t-stat on first floor was set to 52, which you felt right away coming into the house. Turned it up to 72 to get some heat going and I completely forgot how great radiant heat was. Swear, it felt like it was actually 80 degrees in the house within 15 minutes:laughing: Just amazed and completely forgot during the last 3 days exactly how comfortable radiant heat is compared to forced air for heating.
 
   / New Construction HVAC decisions. Geothermal vs. alternatives with upgraded envelope. #67  
We are planning a new home next summer, and won't have Natural Gas available - so I've been researching the best alternative & at our current local costs Propane is very close to Geo. With much lower upfront costs.
We have high co-op electric costs & Propane is currently cheap - which can change at any time. I followed your home plan thread with interest - it made me re-think our plans. So now I'm re-doing them - thanks:)
Good luck

Oof, yeah how do you plan for the future of propane prices though. I sold 6ac to my buddy who built next door to me. He also didn't want to pay to tap into the natural gas line at the road and run it 600' back to his house. Despite my pleas, he went propane also, due to the low upfront costs (free tank, only need a basic furnace, etc). 2 years later after spending THOUSANDS on propane refills and getting jerked around by the delivery company, he had to take out a home equity loan to get a woodstove (foolish, sure, but) and now they try to never use the furnace. That low upfront cost of propane actually turned out to be pretty expensive. Of course they still have to use it for water heating and the oven, and look out the window at a big ugly tank sitting there.

I'll say it here one more time before I shut up (haha), but a modest solar PV array can easily cover the consumption of a set of very-affordable mini-splits, especially if you supplement with wood heat. With solar payback times under 10 years for almost every location now, then you're looking at decades of free heat and free electricity.
 
   / New Construction HVAC decisions. Geothermal vs. alternatives with upgraded envelope. #68  
Actually, one item I forget and I haven't seen with others. If you do radiant floor heat you need to watch out what you do for flooring. Carpet is no issue and I don't believe tile was, but hardwood floors need to be chosen carefully. I believe they recommend 3 things...Quartersawn, narrower boards, and a type of wood with a smaller thermal expansion. We did two out of 3 and the floors have never had a problem.
 
   / New Construction HVAC decisions. Geothermal vs. alternatives with upgraded envelope. #69  
Oof, yeah how do you plan for the future of propane prices though. I sold 6ac to my buddy who built next door to me. He also didn't want to pay to tap into the natural gas line at the road and run it 600' back to his house. Despite my pleas, he went propane also, due to the low upfront costs (free tank, only need a basic furnace, etc). 2 years later after spending THOUSANDS on propane refills and getting jerked around by the delivery company, he had to take out a home equity loan to get a woodstove (foolish, sure, but) and now they try to never use the furnace. That low upfront cost of propane actually turned out to be pretty expensive. Of course they still have to use it for water heating and the oven, and look out the window at a big ugly tank sitting there.

I'll say it here one more time before I shut up (haha), but a modest solar PV array can easily cover the consumption of a set of very-affordable mini-splits, especially if you supplement with wood heat. With solar payback times under 10 years for almost every location now, then you're looking at decades of free heat and free electricity.

Our current home averages around 60 Mbtu of gas annually, which supplies heat, hot water, cooking, & clothes drying. New home is going to be smaller & better insulated, but even figured at the same BTU load it would equal 690 gallons of propane a year. Or about 1000 bucks. I'm all for looking at every alternative, but some just don't payback in my lifetime.
As a side note, how much heat can you get from your mini-split when it gets this cold 2 miles from our building site?:)
Cold, but no cigar: Cotton again hits 56 below, missing state record | Duluth News Tribune
 
   / New Construction HVAC decisions. Geothermal vs. alternatives with upgraded envelope. #70  
Our current home averages around 60 Mbtu of gas annually, which supplies heat, hot water, cooking, & clothes drying. New home is going to be smaller & better insulated, but even figured at the same BTU load it would equal 690 gallons of propane a year. Or about 1000 bucks. I'm all for looking at every alternative, but some just don't payback in my lifetime.
As a side note, how much heat can you get from your mini-split when it gets this cold 2 miles from our building site?:)
Cold, but no cigar: Cotton again hits 56 below, missing state record | Duluth News Tribune

Um, probably zero heat whatsoever from a mini-split at -56 ambient temps. YIKES. But also, you know, don't live there? haha.

A woodstove, on the other hand, would have no problem keeping your house warm at -56 degrees. :)
 

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