New Construction HVAC decisions. Geothermal vs. alternatives with upgraded envelope.

[MGH PA]

Thanks everyone. Clear as mud. Just as I expected. I just wish contractors actually wanted to use the best possible products and solutions rather than up charge with sub par materials. Maybe it's just the OCD in me.

 

[NorTracNY]

My father has radiant heat only. I replaced his boiler in 94, it's still going strong.

Installing a boiler with pex / copper and or even cast iron radiant is going to be cheaper than adding AC onto the job with exisiting heat.

As noted in my previous post, most common meathod I used back in the 90's up north with radiant heat was using a high velocity system for AC. Still cheaper for radiant only though.

The question becomes why spend the extra money on radiant if you don't have to and you want AC as well?

To each their own as long as you're willing to spend what it's going to need to cost.

Not everyone is an AC fan. We just put in a cheap window unit for the maximum 10 days of the year we want it. My parents just put in a mini split. The only time we bother with using the AC is when we have nights where it doesn't get below 70. That's 5-10/year. We saw AC as a huge waste of money. Obviously, we are not in a hot area of the country.

Last time I traded in a vehicle, the sales guy asked if the AC worked. I said, I wasn't sure since I never use it. Everyone's different. Glad you pointed out a downside of what I was saying. I have heard different comments though on GEO and radiant. One guy was saying that it could act as AC.

 

[Sigarms]

Thanks everyone. Clear as mud. Just as I expected. I just wish contractors actually wanted to use the best possible products and solutions rather than up charge with sub par materials. Maybe it's just the OCD in me.

1 - Ductboard is not subpar material. What size (1" / 1.5" / 2" ) ductboard did they spcifiy and what R value flex?

2 - What warranty did the contractor offer on the duct system? Anything newly installed IMO should be covered by a lifetime warranty by the contractor unless it's voided by an act of God (house burned down, flood, tree came crashing in...). No matter what the contractor installs, you should be provided safe assurance that their work is good and they stand behind it.

3 - Did the contractor give you any examples of what type of work they do per images along with contact info for you to call? They should be proud of their work and references should be provided even if they aren't asked for.

The reality is, ductboard is used in some areas, and it's used well if the guys know how to install it. A duct board ductwork system inside a house has about the same chances of being destroyed as a metal duct system. The reality is, if ductwork needs to be changed for any reason, ductboard is actually easier if you know what you're doing.

I don't like ductboard ductwork systems for the same reason why I don't like lined metal ductwork - fiberglass fibers in the air stream. That however is nitpickey. I have 3 separate ductwork systems, all fiberglass lined. I live with it even though it's not my first choice due to cleaning. A properly sized, lined wrapped metal duct system will cause no more noise than a lined system per residential applications.

 

[kenmac]

I don't like duct board and flex for the reason in a crawl space, if cats, rats, etc, get under there. They will destroy your duct work and flex. Seen it too many times.
IMO, It is an inferior material vs metal for crawl space installation.

In an attic possibly, if it's put together with staples and taped with a good tape and mastic over all joints to prevent it from falling apart. And you can keep the rodents out of your attic. I have seen plenty of it fall apart here in the south in a hot attic
Of course, your metal should be sealed for air leakage at all seams

Any duct work installed here must be leak tested and a report given to the customer

We can't afford to have it done right the first time. But we can afford to have it all torn out and done correctly

 

[Sigarms]

I don't like duct board and flex for the reason in a crawl space, if cats, rats, etc, get under there. They will destroy your duct work and flex. Seen it too many times.
IMO, It is an inferior material vs metal for crawl space installation.

Ken

I didn't know what a crawl space was until I moved south of the Mason Dixon line. One of the requirements for our new home when my new wife (at the time) went looking for a house was a basement LOL

 

[MGH PA]

1 - Ductboard is not subpar material. What size (1" / 1.5" / 2" ) ductboard did they spcifiy and what R value flex?

2 - What warranty did the contractor offer on the duct system? Anything newly installed IMO should be covered by a lifetime warranty by the contractor unless it's voided by an act of God (house burned down, flood, tree came crashing in...). No matter what the contractor installs, you should be provided safe assurance that their work is good and they stand behind it.

3 - Did the contractor give you any examples of what type of work they do per images along with contact info for you to call? They should be proud of their work and references should be provided even if they aren't asked for.

The reality is, ductboard is used in some areas, and it's used well if the guys know how to install it. A duct board ductwork system inside a house has about the same chances of being destroyed as a metal duct system. The reality is, if ductwork needs to be changed for any reason, ductboard is actually easier if you know what you're doing.

I don't like ductboard ductwork systems for the same reason why I don't like lined metal ductwork - fiberglass fibers in the air stream. That however is nitpickey. I have 3 separate ductwork systems, all fiberglass lined. I live with it even though it's not my first choice due to cleaning. A properly sized, lined wrapped metal duct system will cause no more noise than a lined system per residential applications.

I haven’t asked for references yet. I only know one person personally who had them install a similar system a few years ago and they’re happy.

Here is, verbatim, the quote I received from them:

1 – WaterFurnace NDV049 5 Series Two Speed Geothermal Unit with Hot water generation. Installation will include an FC1-FPT Pump Pack, 15KW Electric Heat Package, Hi-Def touch screen communicating thermostat with electric heat lockout and lifetime warranted electrostatic air filter.
This system will take care of the first floor needs of the home with some air in basement. A fiberglass/sheetmetal duct system will be installed.
Pricing is for horizontal application with no excessive rock and need for screening. In cases with heavy rock and/or need for screening, additional cost will apply or be determined that vertical will be a better choice. In case of vertical application an additional $3,850 would be added. Casing should not be needed but if absolutely necessary it is extra. Digging is for a one time only rough backfill done at the time of the loop installation.
Price as Described
$24,250
UPGRADE TO THE MOST EFFICIENT HEATING AND COOLING SYSTEM AVAILABLE!
Upgrade to the 7 Series NVV036 Variable Speed Geothermal Unit
Simply the most efficient, most comfortable system available, anywhere!
Add $3,800
OPTIONAL ADD ONS
Symphony Integrated Control System. This system allows us both to monitor the system and notify us both if there are any problems with the geothermal unit.
$750
INFLOOR RADIANT HEAT OPTIONS
WaterFurnace NSW025 Geothermal Heat Pump Water Heater
80 Gallon Geo Storage Tank
(This also produces nearly all of the domestic hot water)
Hydronic Circulator Board for Basement InFloor Radiant Heat
ADD $12,500
Additional infloor zone for Garage
ADD $3,875
2” Insulation board will be needed under basement/garage slab (Provided by Builder). HGI will install infloor piping.
HUMIDITY
Aprilaire 800 Series Steam Humidifier
$1,185
Aprilaire 700 Series Humidifier
$675
Zoning Option with Intellizone2 Zoning Control
This allows for separate thermostats to control different areas of the house. With the 7 Series, even small zones like master suites can be zoned with no air noise! Up to 6 zones total!
1st Additional zone - $2,950
Additional zones afterward - $1,950 per zone (up to 4 zones with 5 Series and up to 6 zones with 7 Series!)

Warranty will be 10 years parts on the package units
5 years parts on pumps and thermostats
Labor warranty for 5 years on everything
Pricing Good for 90 Days
Please Contact us if you have any questions.
Thank You

 

[jk96]

I haven稚 asked for references yet. I only know one person personally who had them install a similar system a few years ago and theyæ±*e happy.

Here is, verbatim, the quote I received from them:

A couple of notes. We have the Aprilaire 800 Series. Very nice unit that has served us well. If your in a cold climate where low humidity is going to be an issue it's well worth adding. Set your humidity level for the winter and forget it. I also see you quote shows hot water generation from your geo unit but do not see any mention of a buffer tank. It's pointless to have the hot water option without a second buffer water tank. The buffer tank does not need to be a high end tank. We use a marathon main tank and a standard tank for the buffer. Finally I don't see anything in the quote for an HRV or ERV for your home. If you are building right to stop air infiltration and it sounds like you are you will need a system for fresh air to be brought into the home. Our contractor stated we did not need one and we ended up adding it after the fact when I started monitoring co2 levels in the home.

 

[NorTracNY]

A couple of notes. We have the Aprilaire 800 Series. Very nice unit that has served us well. If your in a cold climate where low humidity is going to be an issue it's well worth adding. Set your humidity level for the winter and forget it. I also see you quote shows hot water generation from your geo unit but do not see any mention of a buffer tank. It's pointless to have the hot water option without a second buffer water tank. The buffer tank does not need to be a high end tank. We use a marathon main tank and a standard tank for the buffer. Finally I don't see anything in the quote for an HRV or ERV for your home. If you are building right to stop air infiltration and it sounds like you are you will need a system for fresh air to be brought into the home. Our contractor stated we did not need one and we ended up adding it after the fact when I started monitoring co2 levels in the home.

Yes, after getting an energy audit on our new house, they said it was too tight. They warned that a house that was too tight would likely have illnesses being passed from one occupant to another. Interesting that you went to CO2 monitoring and see it. Interesting thought.

 

[kenmac]

I haven’t asked for references yet. I only know one person personally who had them install a similar system a few years ago and they’re happy.

Here is, verbatim, the quote I received from them:

Good gosh man ! Just for the first part without any add on's or up grading to anything, you're at 24K for the system. I don't know anything about those systems, But sure hope the unit last long enough to pay for itself.. Or, at least last long enough for you to see any pay back over what you pay out for the system

Ain't no way I would pay that much to heat and cool my home. It would take a life time to make my money back and start to see any savings. I just don't believe it will last that long

 

[jk96]

Good gosh man ! Just for the first part without any add on's or up grading to anything, you're at 24K for the system. I don't know anything about those systems, But sure hope the unit last long enough to pay for itself.. Or, at least last long enough for you to see any pay back over what you pay out for the system

Ain't no way I would pay that much to heat and cool my home. It would take a life time to make my money back and start to see any savings. I just don't believe it will last that long

Kenmac there are a few things to consider, one being the 30% tax credit until the end of this year before it starts scaling back. That takes the system cost in his quote to $16,800. There are sometimes local rebates as well. Just remember that tax credit does not include the ductwork on the system so you will need your invoice broken out for the credit. Other considerations are a system that is comfortable and quiet do to the low volume delivery of geo. In our home for instance my wife has a plant that sits next to a floor vent. Seeing the leaves move is the only way that I can tell our system is running. It really is that quite. Units also sit inside out of the weather. Not sure how much that will add to the life.

Here was the breakout on ours. two - 4 ton modine 2 stage units, water to air. Desuperheater. Backup heat strips. All metal duct, fiberglass lined. Horizontal ground loop. Total of 6 zones heating 4,400 square feet.
Total Cost = $34,000. Breakout was $7,000 ductwork, $27,000 geo.
Govt Tax Credit = 8,100
Local utility credit ($750 per ton) = $6,000
Final install cost after credits = $19900
After all of the rebates we were only about $3,000 more than an electric heat pump system.