Why are Kubota FEL's so weak?

[rScotty]

That is a really good chart on the loader. Notice they say nothing about torsion or twist resistance (and none of the manufacturers do.) The Nebraska tractor lab has nothing published on torsion that I can find either. Loaders get used for SO many things, whether appropriate or not, and a lot of people shopping for tractors see the loader as a very large part of their use and application. So there really should be specs on torsion. How much off center load will it handle producing how much angular deflection in the loader frame ? What is the max allowable ? What is the point of no return where a twist becomes a permanent disfigurement until repaired? It would be much improved insight into the tractor/loader capability to see those stats and to see them tested.

You certainly have a point about loaders needing to be resistant to twisting. Here on TBN I see a lot of posts about loaders, but hardly any about problems with loaders and loader frames, so maybe the designers are getting it right. That wasn't always the case. A generation ago you heard everyday about loader arms and frames twisting and bending. In fact, was used to be commonplace to hear about a FEL loader breaking the frame of the tractor itself. Lots of people wouldn't put loaders on their tractors for just those reasons.

Back them it was also true that calculating all the potential loads on something as geometrically complicated as a loader was a terribly involved and nasty job.. Good companies paid talented designers big money to come up with strong efficient designs. Not all companies had talented designers, but no company wanted designers spending time doing a lot of checking for off-axis stresses. So loader quality varied a lot.

But things are different now. Engineering wise it's become easy today to design so that if a loader that can lift a certain amount, it can also resist that much stress in every direction. Now a designer simply draws a 3D computer model in which all the loads and stresses are calculated automatically. It's become so easy to make something like a loader able to resist stress in any direction that it would be kinda unusual not to do that. All it takes is for the company to want to spend the money to make it strong in all directions. Nothing has changed about that part of the process. It's still true that stronger designs cost more to make, and that stonger, better made products ultimately make a machine that costs more to buy.

It's just that the engineering itself which used to need so much education and eat up so much $$ & time is now easy. Today a high school kid with a computer program can check the stresses on anything. All he needs is the model file.
rScotty

 

[BleedingOrange]

For the life of me, I cann,t understand people being brand loyal, to any brand whatsoever. When I buy something, I am looking for an item that will cover my needs, at a price I am willing to pay. Over the years, I have bought used Fords, Chevs, Dodges, Jaguars, Mustangs, Miatas, and even Kubota tractors, and have had good luck with them all. If I feel I am getting good value for money spent, I really couldn,t give a rat sass what other peoples opinions or recommendations are. I figure out my needs and wants, and after doing my research, I buy whatever I feel is the best deal, for me. Why do people get hung up on what others want to buy ? I really couldn,t care less what my neighbors, or others buy. IF it works for them, great.

 

[Egon]

I believe Kubota to be the best designed, built, and fit n finish tractors on the market. To that end I just bought a L3901 and so far I am happy with it. One thing that does stand out though when comparing this model to similar models from other manufacturers is the FEL is weak. Kioti has a ~1800# rating LS even more than that. My 525 is 1150#. This is basic physics so how are the other manufacturers getting so much more lift, has to be higher operating pressure or larger cylinders since they lift to the same height. Also I doubt this is an oversight by Kubota, they are too well thought out. Maybe they just realize this size machine should not be lifting more weight than this? I have ballasted rear tires and have had them come off the ground when being too aggressive with the loader, I can't imagine what it would be like with 50% more weight out there. Anyway is there a reason Kubota chose to limit the FEL by so much other than they are trying to save us from ourselves?

Perhaps the loader is designed in accordance to the tractor design capabilities.

 

[big bubba]

i certainly agree that the fel torsion bar is the weak link on Kubota loaders. it's possible that it was designed that way to avoid damage to the arms, etc from unbalanced stress. in my own case, occasionally one of the quick disconnect levers became unsecured. didn't notice it until after i had some heavy loads, & the torsion bar twisted. Dealership wanted $900 for replacement.
i came up with a method to align it close to original, but it is now weaker & can happen easily again. I now bungee down.both QR levers. as mentioned, lots of lots of threads on this.

as far as "overall weakness" of Kubota fel, i disagree with OP. my feeling is that many owners buy smaller compact machines, then place workloads on them for which they are not designed. see it all the time on the forum. trying to do a mountain of work with a machine designed for lesser stresses. best regards

 

[pittsville]

I believe it is because some people expect the same performance as a dedicated front end loader. I assume this "weakness" some people see is not being able to load the bucket by driving it into a pile of whatever you want to pick up and fully loading the bucket in that manner. I admit that my BX25 will not do that well, but what I can do is curl the bucket up as I try to load it to scoop the material into the bucket, and this makes it more effective. It is possible to put so much weight in the front end loader that it will pull the rear wheels off the ground if the backhoe is not attached and the front end loader is lifted high enough. So in the case of my sub miniature BX25 tractor it appears to be a design trade-off.

 

[Threepoint]

For the life of me, I cann,t understand people being brand loyal, to any brand whatsoever. When I buy something, I am looking for an item that will cover my needs, at a price I am willing to pay. Over the years, I have bought used Fords, Chevs, Dodges, Jaguars, Mustangs, Miatas, and even Kubota tractors, and have had good luck with them all. If I feel I am getting good value for money spent, I really couldn,t give a rat sass what other peoples opinions or recommendations are. I figure out my needs and wants, and after doing my research, I buy whatever I feel is the best deal, for me. Why do people get hung up on what others want to buy ? I really couldn,t care less what my neighbors, or others buy. IF it works for them, great.

Well said, BleedingOrange.

I thought this thread, with its bait-casting title, mercifully died a year ago. Now I see one of our members has just discovered it, and is stirring the pot with some gratuitous posts.

To the larger point, no doubt a lot of the "brand loyalty", and its counterpart "brand bashing", is just confirmation bias and a need for self-affirmation of their personal buying decisions. Mix that with a little testosterone, and off we go. :laughing:

 

[Threepoint]

One good thing to come out of the resurrection of this thread is the discussion of torsion-loading of the loader arms. Thank you, JWR and rScotty. In fact, it really is a topic worthy of a separate thread, without the silly provocative title of this one.

My guess is all the design engineers take torsion loading into account at some point, both in loader design and in matching loader models with tractor models. This, even though testing results are not publicized. What I've noticed, however (and maybe I'm just now becoming aware of it), is the rapid increase in popularity of grapples for CUTS. A grapple puts very different lateral loading demands on the FEL arms than, say, a standard bucket or a fork lift attachment. That is because the load is so often going to extend beyond the width of the grapple and be unbalanced. And if balanced on level ground, as soon as the tractor approaches a side slope, or a front wheel drops into a depression, the rotational forces around the grapple's direction of travel change. I have a 66" dual-lid grapple that I use on both of my larger CUTS. If I'm lifting and moving a 10' section of a large log, I am really aware of the risk of sudden shift in loading forces!

 

[SloppyJoe]

For the life of me, I cann,t understand people being brand loyal, to any brand whatsoever. When I buy something, I am looking for an item that will cover my needs, at a price I am willing to pay. Over the years, I have bought used Fords, Chevs, Dodges, Jaguars, Mustangs, Miatas, and even Kubota tractors, and have had good luck with them all. If I feel I am getting good value for money spent, I really couldn,t give a rat sass what other peoples opinions or recommendations are. I figure out my needs and wants, and after doing my research, I buy whatever I feel is the best deal, for me. Why do people get hung up on what others want to buy ? I really couldn,t care less what my neighbors, or others buy. IF it works for them, great.

I agree. Kubota makes a great tractor as do a lot of others, It's a shame when you can't point out a weakness in a product and have people take it personally. I have a Kioti now but who knows what I will get next? I want to be open minded enough to evaluate everything including brand reputation, dealer relation and price, capabilities, and ergonomics..

 

[JWR]

You certainly have a point about loaders needing to be resistant to twisting. Here on TBN I see a lot of posts about loaders, but hardly any about problems with loaders and loader frames, so maybe the designers are getting it right. That wasn't always the case. A generation ago you heard everyday about loader arms and frames twisting and bending. ...
rScotty

Agree with your comments. Aside from the lift specs (and data like that great drawing you posted) buyers just don't have much to go on. At my age I am far more a hobbyist than a serious farmer making my living this way. And as retired engineer I enjoy the technicalities whether regarding my equipment or someone else's. Over the last several years I have visually studied various loaders on friends tractors, at shows, etc. and have my own "trained eye" for what I consider a stronger loader. Mostly I mean the loader frame, not so much the lift specs. My eyeball says the Kubota loaders (on the larger tractors, like on a M8560 & above) are stronger looking overall than the MF DL250 on my Massey for example. The heavy tube that runs left right between the main frame pieces is stronger than mine. Kubota also shifted to selling the skid-steer compatible interface predominantly much sooner than the rest of the industry and I think that was a smart move. My MF SSQA adapter works fine but won't stand much if you happen to hook one side of a heavy bucket or other attachment. I bent my left/right SSQA bar beyond redemption once. Deere thought they were big enough to ignore that SSQA trend and slowly finding out how wrong they were. Third party loaders like Bush Hog, Woods, Rhino, and Westendorf are probably 'good' and look fairly strong. My renters use Bush Hog and swear by them. I've had very good use of Deere, Case, small Kubota, and now MF loaders over the years. All good.

I have heard that many if not most of the big name tractors (Massey, Deere, New Holland, etc.) actually have their loaders made by subcontractors whose names I have lost.

Wonder if anyone listening has much info on the loader manufacturer industry ? Good topic for a new thread.

 

[Threepoint]

[snip]

Wonder if anyone listening has much info on the loader manufacturer industry ? Good topic for a new thread.

JWR, I nominate you to start a new thread on FEL torsion loading and testing. :thumbsup: