Kioti Tractor Tuning

[Threepoint]

Deezler, finn1 and PhantomofHeat - This exchange is well beyond my skill set, but FWIW, it's my understanding that the CK3510SE and CK4010SE have identical engines, but with the former detuned for fuel delivery, largely for marketing and price-point strategy. Same with the NX4510HST and the NX6010HST: Identical engines but with fuel delivery reduced for the former. I don't know how that detuning is actually accomplished. I believe the injectors for the NX4510 and NX6010 are the same, but a calibration must be done to match them to the particular model. Might this be the place where the uptuning would be accomplished? :scratchchin: Hard to believe, though, that it would be that simple. :confused3:

 

[PhantomOfHeat]

Curious what price spread you were quoted between the CK 3510SE HST and the CK4010SE HST.

The difference was $1900.

...you would know that every engine released for production generally has quite a good safety factor baked in for various components. I can't think of an engine that I have measured/dyno'd over the last decade that couldn't easily handle 10% more power.

That's also assuming that the manufacture is pushing the engine and did not spec the engine to have specific dimensions and make at lease X hp. If they hit the numbers they are looking for and it works reliably at 200% of the required power they will detune it to be at the requested spec. Look at the Grand national it produced ~250HP stock with many "hacks" pushing it to 1000-1200hp.

 

[finn1]

The only difference between the 3510 and 4010 calibration is likely the pulse width calibration, ie how long the common rail injector is commanded to be open to deliver fuel into the combustion chamber.

Timing tables and rail pressure calibration would be common in most instances.

Tractor companies sell horsepower, and have since before the 1970s when痴 i became involved.

In those days, there were incremental engine displacement and hardware differences internally for the incremental power outputs. For example, both Deere and IH had 3, 4, and six cylinder engines with multiple bores, strokes, cylinder spacing, and aspirations (na, turbo, and turbo inter cooled, with multiple injection system design (VA, VE, Ambac, Stanadyne, MW, and P.). Within a given displacement there were cast and nodular rings and rectangular and keystone top rings, pistons with and without top groove inserts and the list goes on.

It was a logistical nightmare. Now, with modern electronics, it痴 pretty simple to develop hardware and software for the max rating, and simply do several calibrations to power levels under that umbrella.

Horsepower still sells, though.

 

[Threepoint]

The only difference between the 3510 and 4010 calibration is likely the pulse width calibration, ie how long the common rail injector is commanded to be open to deliver fuel into the combustion chamber.

Timing tables and rail pressure calibration would be common in most instances.

[snip]

Thanks for this, finn1. If you are right about it, it may not be long before third-party up-tuning services become readily available.

 

[PhantomOfHeat]

Has anyone been able to find info on the engine in the 3510 and 4010 ?

Here is what I could find on the engines available.

CK3510 - 3F-TM4-U (34.9)
CK3510hst - 3F-TH4-U (34.9)
CK4010 - 3F-TM4-U (39.6)
CK4010hst - 3F-TH4-U (39.6)

DK4510 - 3F183T (45)
DK5010 - 3F183T (50)
DK5510 - 3F183T (55)
NX6010 - 3F183T (60)

RX6610 - 4F243T finally added a cylinder

3F - #of cylinders, Engine revision (or emission tier)
XXX - MODEL OPTION (M- manual, H - Hydrostat) if all numbers displacement rounded with the 0 dropped from the end.
U/T - NA OR TURBO

ENGINE SERIES > PRODUCT

Looking at the above link the 3F-Tx4-U does not exist. I assume they decided to give the 3F183 a new engine code for the US as that is the only tier 4 engine with the same displacement. My only guess why they did this is to cover that the 3F183 that is rated at 26hp and 29.5hp and do more in other markets. Although that does not work when considering the turbo version as the 3F183T is only rated upto 43hp but the us version pushed is to 60hp.

Let me know if anyone else has found info on the engines?

 

[biggziff]

A competent dealer will flag the serial number of any tractor that has had the fuel injection system or ECU tampered with and void any remaining powertrain or engine warranty.

Just something to think about.

That's illegal in the US. Magnuson - Moss made it so.

 

[finn1]

That's illegal in the US. Magnuson - Moss made it so.

No, it’s not illegal to void the powertrain warranty on a tractor that has had the powertrain modified by the end user.

Magnuson would come into play if the owner made a modification to, say install an aftermarket stereo, and had an unrelated issue with, say, the transmission. The dealer has to honor the transmission warranty in that case, since the radio doesn’t affect transmission design.

If the owner tampers with the fuel setting, though, to increase power input to the transmission, the warranty can be voided.

Happens all the time in the pickup truck market. Owner adds a “tuner” to increase power and cracks a piston or blows a transmi Or rear end. The manufacturer requires the dealer to identify unauthorized modifications and the warranty is flagged. New trucks actually have software flagging routines built in which automatically flag modifications.

 

[biggziff]

No, it’s not illegal to void the powertrain warranty on a tractor that has had the powertrain modified by the end user.

Magnuson would come into play if the owner made a modification to, say install an aftermarket stereo, and had an unrelated issue with, say, the transmission. The dealer has to honor the transmission warranty in that case, since the radio doesn’t affect transmission design.

If the owner tampers with the fuel setting, though, to increase power input to the transmission, the warranty can be voided.

Happens all the time in the pickup truck market. Owner adds a “tuner” to increase power and cracks a piston or blows a transmi Or rear end. The manufacturer requires the dealer to identify unauthorized modifications and the warranty is flagged. New trucks actually have software flagging routines built in which automatically flag modifications.

I can't find the details now, but an attorney friend who deals with this sort of thing both in the US and globally sent me precedent that that use case has been tested and failed to meet the criteria finding the consumer in the right. It's out there somewhere.

 

[Threepoint]

I can't find the details now, but an attorney friend who deals with this sort of thing both in the US and globally sent me precedent that that use case has been tested and failed to meet the criteria finding the consumer in the right. It's out there somewhere.

Finn1 and bigziff, I think the issue is more nuanced than either of your comments suggest in the hypothetical case we're discussing here: re-calibrating the ECU of "Tractor A" to deliver the same amount of fuel to it's common-rail injectors as on an otherwise identical "Tractor B" that has not been de-tuned strictly for marketing purposes.

Biggziff, perhaps you can contact your friend and ask him to resend that precedent. There for sure are some bright-line rules under Magnuson-Moss, but they don't deal directly with such a situation. Unless the warrantor has expressly said in its warranty that making such a modification voids the warranty, the case just becomes a matter of shifting burdens of proof. The warrantor would have the burden of proving by a "preponderance of the evidence" that whatever damage occurred was caused, at least in part, by the modification.

 

[DieselBound]

Would any extra power really be substantial enough to make a reasonable difference, enough of a difference to make it worth taking the risk?

When adding more fuel one also needs to add more air. At some point a larger turbo is necessary. And depending on the amount of change in fueling (and air) the engine timing will have to be advanced (not just a change in duration of the injection). This all requires that one have an EGT gauge (and perhaps boost gauge).

I'd be curious as to whether there could be ramifications on/with the hydraulic pump. Kind of thinking that maybe it doesn't matter, but I'd for sure want to know before possibly mucking one up.