MIE 3rd Function Kit

[the old grind]

.. What MIE is doing differently is putting everything in the same manifold making it an all in one unit...

.. and thanks for adding priority flow 'relevance' to tractors as we've had it & perhaps hadn't noticed.

By 'combining', wouldn't we only be changing how the open & curl cyls operate differently vs with a simple diverter like mine & not any other part of an open center system? Whether it's curl or lid that gets priority should be a matter of plumbing, just as switch location is a matter of position. (I'll get it, I promise .. )

.. what MIE is doing can be done already, but with more hardware and plumbing.

Looks like that's what MIE is offering to free us from. And pic or two of my diverter setup would show how few places I had on a 'light duty' CUT to actually mount the diverter valve. Another and its plumbing might easily have complicated QD removal of the FEL, but MIE's crew kept it as simple for me as the usual two hose QDs and unplugging the switch. (Y'know, I could rework the mount bracket to upgrade, and I really hope to 'share' that basic design..)

btw, that I have yet to review all of MIE's work (for me) or products is on me for lacking the ability (just yet) to do them justice. Well, I'm kinda busy using the stuff & won't stop just to take pictures of it ... :confused3:

 

[cphilip]

There is no price link pdf now on the MIE site to the current third function joy stick. Anyone know? Any progress on this new one?

 

[JTP]

Yes, progress has been made on the electric proportional control. MIE installed it on my RX7320 recently purchased from them. After a few tweaks from all the players involved in producing this it functions quite well. It does allow full control of 3 functions at one time. I don't know if they have a kit available for sale through the the website yet though.

 

[69raptor]

I picked up my nx4510 secound week of January and have take 3rd function on joy stick. Work perfect.

 

[the old grind]

Here's my MIE-installed diverter. (It's not independent/true 3rd function, but T-1520 hydro system is open-center & pump is but 6gpm.)



I designed/built the bracket to tunnel OEM hard lines 'beneath' the valve & Bob's crew put it together tidy and simple. :thumbsup:
I also added a 'momentary' SPST switch to the joystick rather than 'chop' and replace it with one button-equipped. It's a friction-fit mount, takes 5-10min to .. uh, replace the $4 switch when my knee breaks off the handle.

 

[coldsteelva]

It has been mentioned in this thread in different posts, but the truly important item to always keep in mind is that regardless of the actual performance of the valve and its design - the OVERALL flow rate/pressure/capacity of the hydro system will be the limiting factor.

If there is no flow left, there will be no functions left no matter how much feathering/proportioning is done. It's not purposely false or misleading advertising, but people have expectations exceeding their flow rates.

 

[Piney Woods Rooter]

...If there is no flow left, there will be no functions left no matter how much feathering/proportioning is done. It's not purposely false or misleading advertising, but people have expectations exceeding their flow rates.

This is the key and what makes a diverter such an attractive option, especially when you can have a diverter kit for roughly half to a third of the cost of a "true" 3rd. function set-up using the Power Beyond port.

 

[the old grind]

What CSV and PWR said. :thumbsup: Yes, we can have our grapples and 3/8" lines will do for ~6 gpm CUT systems, but motors 'up front' would vastly disappoint.

1/2" lines and IMO 12 gpm min for motors other than PHDs. That so many skid-steers (~50-70hp) have 18 gpm systems should not be ignored. t o g

 

[wiskioti]

We have listened to our customers and will soon be offering a new type of "True Third Function Priority/Proportional Kit".
We have spent about 6 months developing a custom 3rd function "proportional control" 3rd function kit. This kit will offer hydraulic power beyond from the 3rd function valve with electric-over-hydraulic "proportional" control for feathering the hydraulics on the 3rd function. This means that the power flow will not be interupted when using the 3rd function, and will priovide continous "power-beyond" even when the 3rd function is used. This will eliminate the possibility of "deadheading" the hydraulic system, since the valve will have an integrated priority divider to constantly provide flow to the follow on hydraulic functions in the tractor (ie-3-point hydraulics). All of the features will be contained in a custom valve body, allowing full proportional 3rd function control (feathering) and priority power-beyond from one valve body. We hope to start having kits ready by fall of this year.

I hope this doesn't come across as a dumb question but I've not been able to find the answer. With this kit, is this a 2-button pair on the joystick or a 2-way rocker switch that activates the 3rd function (and opens and closes the grapple jaw if that was connected to the 3rd function) -OR- is this a button that needs to be pressed in addition to moving the joystick to operate the 3rd function?

Hopefully the question makes sense. Thanks TBN'ers

 

[MichiganIron]

I hope this doesn't come across as a dumb question but I've not been able to find the answer. With this kit, is this a 2-button pair on the joystick or a 2-way rocker switch that activates the 3rd function (and opens and closes the grapple jaw if that was connected to the 3rd function) -OR- is this a button that needs to be pressed in addition to moving the joystick to operate the 3rd function?

Hopefully the question makes sense. Thanks TBN'ers

Your question is a good one, and covers the 3 different kits that we offer: (can be confusing)

Momentary Push Button; used on our Electric Selector 3rd Function kits to select between the bucket curl and 3rd function. Simple kit that offers the feathering of the 3rd function while the momentary button is pushed. On some kits, the momentary button is actually a trigger handle.

(2) Momentary Buttons; used on our "On-Off" Style TFK Third Function Kits. Each momentary button operates the "open" or "close" side of the 3rd function. The feathering on this kit is set by the pressure compensated flow valve in the manifold block. The operator sets the required flow to the 3rd function. The balance of the total flow provides continuous power beyond to the tractor.

Slide Rocker Switch; used on our Proportional Control TFK Third Function Kits. Allows proportional 3rd function control with an electric over hydraulic valve driver control. 5gpm maximum flow to the 3rd function, the balance provides continuous power beyond to the tractor.

As you can see, all of our kits provide continuous Power Beyond to the tractor. This is absolutely necessary to assure the tractor hydraulic system cannot be deadheaded during use of the 3rd function. Our custom TFK manifolds provide; continuous pressure compensated Power beyond, Metered flow to the 3rd function, 3rd Function Pressure Relief. Our TFK Kits were designed for ease of operator use and the safety of the tractor hydraulic system.

Hope this helps,

Team MIE

 

[wiskioti]

Thanks for the quick reply. I should have specified exactly which kit I was looking at so you could give me the best answer (for my case). I'm looking at ESK-6010 for the KL6010 loader. I really like the option that this kit is custom made for the KL6010 with all the necessary mounting brackets and connections. Do you have a picture of the hand control? I'm looking to add a grapple so I'm trying to understand completely how it's controlled.

Also, is this 3rd function always "live" or is there master switch to enable/disable the 3rd function? We all know the NX series has lots of switches already but I don't know if there's value in being able to disable the 3rd function joystick switch when there is not a front mounted hydraulic implement hooked up.

Thanks

 

[MichiganIron]

Thanks for the quick reply. I should have specified exactly which kit I was looking at so you could give me the best answer (for my case). I'm looking at ESK-6010 for the KL6010 loader. I really like the option that this kit is custom made for the KL6010 with all the necessary mounting brackets and connections. Do you have a picture of the hand control? I'm looking to add a grapple so I'm trying to understand completely how it's controlled.

Also, is this 3rd function always "live" or is there master switch to enable/disable the 3rd function? We all know the NX series has lots of switches already but I don't know if there's value in being able to disable the 3rd function joystick switch when there is not a front mounted hydraulic implement hooked up.

Thanks

The ESK Kit is a very good choice. As discussed earlier in this thread, the tractor hydraulic system really decides how many functions are really available at anytime. The ESK Kit also allows smooth feathering of the 3rd function while in use. The system is "powered" all of the time, but only uses power when the switch is activated. No battery draw while not in use.

The NX Kit comes with the same type joystick handle that is stock in the tractor. The custom handle provided with the kit has a momentary thumb button built into the handle at the thumb grip on the handle. Push and hold the button with your thumb for the 3rd function control.

We are offering "Package Deals" on our website miemachinerydivision for Bucket Grapple / Function Kits. These package deals are set up to offer an option for a grapple and 3rd function kit for the cost of a grapple alone.

Thank you for your interest.

Team MIE

 

[skindaddy]

does michigan iron make anything compatible with kubota?

 

[waendo]

The ESK Kit is a very good choice. As discussed earlier in this thread, the tractor hydraulic system really decides how many functions are really available at anytime. The ESK Kit also allows smooth feathering of the 3rd function while in use. The system is "powered" all of the time, but only uses power when the switch is activated. No battery draw while not in use.

The NX Kit comes with the same type joystick handle that is stock in the tractor. The custom handle provided with the kit has a momentary thumb button built into the handle at the thumb grip on the handle. Push and hold the button with your thumb for the 3rd function control.

We are offering "Package Deals" on our website miemachinerydivision for Bucket Grapple / Function Kits. These package deals are set up to offer an option for a grapple and 3rd function kit for the cost of a grapple alone.

Thank you for your interest.

Team MIE

Thanks for the explanations. I am placing an order for a NX4510HST w/ 2nd rear remote (decant) option and want the FEL 3rd function option as well. I intend to place a Hyd top-link and side link that will occupy the two rear remotes when in use. From what I've read, an open station NX4510 does not have a spot for a third rear remote lever. Please correct me if I've misinterpreted threads about the lever. I want to be able to use the third function valve to operate a grapple and possibly a hydraulic FEL post hole digger off the FEL, then run lines from the kit to the 3pt to operate a hydraulic feed for a chipper, dropping ripper teeth, and future 3pt implements that have a hydraulic need. I'm still confused about whether the Kioti NX 3rd Function kit or the ESK kit would be best?

I'm also confused about feathering? My understanding is that feathering would allow a grapple to close at a graduated rate vs. full speed???

Appreciate recommendations and further explanation.
Thanks!

 

[MichiganIron]

Thank you for your questions, please find our comments below:

For using the 3rd function for the Front or the Rear of the tractor, we offer an Add-on kit that allows you to switch between the Front 3rd Function ports and the Additional Rear Hydraulic ports. This allows for the convenience of using the 3rd Function for either without needing to re-route hoses or change anything on the tractor.

Feathering and "True 3rd Function" is both a discussion and a debate. We offer 3 different kits to add a 3rd function to the front loader. We offer our Electric Selector Kits (ESK), and our True 3rd Function Kits (TFK). The TFK Kits are available "on-off", similar to other kits on the market, or electronic Proportional control. Both of our TFK Kits include the following custom features:

Continuous Power Beyond - even when using the 3rd Function.
Metering Flow Valve - Allows the operator to set the flow to the 3rd Function.
Independent Pressure relief - Since 3rd functions work off the loader Power Beyond Port, we built in a Pressure Relief for just the 3rd Function.

We prefer to call the TFK Kits "Independent 3rd Function" kits. We had offered the Electric Selector Kits for years, but customers wanted the 3rd Function independent from the bucket curl. The issue with this....many times the loader will not dual function due to the pressure differences in the 2 open circuits. Hydraulic flow is governed by the "path of least resistance". In other words, when you open 2 circuits at the same time, the flow is going to the circuit with the least pressure. As an example, if you close a grapple and curl the bucket at the same time, the grapple will close faster than the bucket will curl. The flow always goes to the path of least resistance. You need to be able to "feather", or control the flow to any 2 circuits that are open simultaneously. Thus we offer the metering valve on our Control Manifold, and also offer the Proportional controlled kit.

All the kits are functional for Grapples, Plow Blades, etc. The different Kits offer different features depending on the customer's preferences. We have a little of everything in our different style kits.....but all offer Continuous Power Beyond, so it is impossible to dead head the hydraulic system with our 3rd function kits.

Hope this helps...sorry for the long winded yap

 

[wiskioti]

Thanks for the explanations. I am placing an order for a NX4510HST w/ 2nd rear remote (decant) option and want the FEL 3rd function option as well. I intend to place a Hyd top-link and side link that will occupy the two rear remotes when in use. From what I've read, an open station NX4510 does not have a spot for a third rear remote lever. Please correct me if I've misinterpreted threads about the lever. I want to be able to use the third function valve to operate a grapple and possibly a hydraulic FEL post hole digger off the FEL, then run lines from the kit to the 3pt to operate a hydraulic feed for a chipper, dropping ripper teeth, and future 3pt implements that have a hydraulic need. I'm still confused about whether the Kioti NX 3rd Function kit or the ESK kit would be best?

I'm also confused about feathering? My understanding is that feathering would allow a grapple to close at a graduated rate vs. full speed???

Appreciate recommendations and further explanation.
Thanks!

I have the MIE ESK on an NX4510.

I will leave the the hydraulics questions about continuous flow to other pros. My understanding is that an ESK kit is not designed for the continuous flow of a hydro motor like what would be found on a hydro posthole digger. The kits are only designed for momentary hydro like a grapple. The rear hydros may be different, but I think those too would require a specific setup for continuous flow.

Feathering - With an ESK, when you hold the button, the farther you move your joystick in any direction, the faster the flow (and the faster the implement works) to the diverted function. So, with an ESK, you can hold the button and move the joystick only a fraction of the full direction and the grapple will close or open more slowly. With a 'true' 3rd function, you get 100% flow at the touch or a button, so there is no way to slow down the grapple being opened or closed. This would take some getting used to so you are not sending 100% flow to a grapple that won't close any further and deadheading the pump.

 

[waendo]

Thank you for your questions, please find our comments below:

For using the 3rd function for the Front or the Rear of the tractor, we offer an Add-on kit that allows you to switch between the Front 3rd Function ports and the Additional Rear Hydraulic ports. This allows for the convenience of using the 3rd Function for either without needing to re-route hoses or change anything on the tractor.

Feathering and "True 3rd Function" is both a discussion and a debate. We offer 3 different kits to add a 3rd function to the front loader. We offer our Electric Selector Kits (ESK), and our True 3rd Function Kits (TFK). The TFK Kits are available "on-off", similar to other kits on the market, or electronic Proportional control. Both of our TFK Kits include the following custom features:

Continuous Power Beyond - even when using the 3rd Function.
Metering Flow Valve - Allows the operator to set the flow to the 3rd Function.
Independent Pressure relief - Since 3rd functions work off the loader Power Beyond Port, we built in a Pressure Relief for just the 3rd Function.

We prefer to call the TFK Kits "Independent 3rd Function" kits. We had offered the Electric Selector Kits for years, but customers wanted the 3rd Function independent from the bucket curl. The issue with this....many times the loader will not dual function due to the pressure differences in the 2 open circuits. Hydraulic flow is governed by the "path of least resistance". In other words, when you open 2 circuits at the same time, the flow is going to the circuit with the least pressure. As an example, if you close a grapple and curl the bucket at the same time, the grapple will close faster than the bucket will curl. The flow always goes to the path of least resistance. You need to be able to "feather", or control the flow to any 2 circuits that are open simultaneously. Thus we offer the metering valve on our Control Manifold, and also offer the Proportional controlled kit.

All the kits are functional for Grapples, Plow Blades, etc. The different Kits offer different features depending on the customer's preferences. We have a little of everything in our different style kits.....but all offer Continuous Power Beyond, so it is impossible to dead head the hydraulic system with our 3rd function kits.

Hope this helps...sorry for the long winded yap

Thank you for this information. I'm new to thinking about hydraulics, so this information is helpful.
With respect to the TFK vs. Kioti, this video is all that I have to go by on the Kioti badged 3rd function: KIOTI 3d Function Valve demonstration from Larry Stovesand Equipment - YouTube

I'm unclear if the Kioti kit is different than the TFK on-off kit in any respect. You mention that the TFK kits have these custom features:
Continuous Power Beyond - even when using the 3rd Function.
Metering Flow Valve - Allows the operator to set the flow to the 3rd Function.
Independent Pressure relief - Since 3rd functions work off the loader Power Beyond Port, we built in a Pressure Relief for just the 3rd Function.

Does the Kioti kit also have these features?
Does the TKF on-off kit offer some feature that put's it ahead of the Kioti kit? Does the TKF kit have a custom fit on an NX like the Kioti kit does? I'm concerned about protection of the manifold and lines.

For the add-on 3rd function kit that diverts from front to back, is it compatible with either the Kioti or the TKF kit? If I already have 2 sets of rear remotes, where do the add-on kit rear remotes mount?

Thank you

 

[waendo]

I have the MIE ESK on an NX4510.

I will leave the the hydraulics questions about continuous flow to other pros. My understanding is that an ESK kit is not designed for the continuous flow of a hydro motor like what would be found on a hydro posthole digger. The kits are only designed for momentary hydro like a grapple. The rear hydros may be different, but I think those too would require a specific setup for continuous flow.

Feathering - With an ESK, when you hold the button, the farther you move your joystick in any direction, the faster the flow (and the faster the implement works) to the diverted function. So, with an ESK, you can hold the button and move the joystick only a fraction of the full direction and the grapple will close or open more slowly. With a 'true' 3rd function, you get 100% flow at the touch or a button, so there is no way to slow down the grapple being opened or closed. This would take some getting used to so you are not sending 100% flow to a grapple that won't close any further and deadheading the pump.

Thanks for the explanation. I hope the original poster does not mind that I've hijacked his thread.
Your explanation of the ESK helps, so when you switch to the 3rd function, it takes over one of the joystick positions and therefore the rate/speed can be controlled just like the bucket curl rate?
Are you happy with the ESK? Was the TKF available when you made the purchase?

 

[skindaddy]

it would be nice to see videos made of all these features or options for these kits so people could make the best choice for them, if you dont live in the hydraulic world, no amount of explanation will make it clear, with all the choices.

 

[MichiganIron]

I'm unclear if the Kioti kit is different than the TFK on-off kit in any respect. You mention that the TFK kits have these custom features:
Continuous Power Beyond - even when using the 3rd Function.
Metering Flow Valve - Allows the operator to set the flow to the 3rd Function.
Independent Pressure relief - Since 3rd functions work off the loader Power Beyond Port, we built in a Pressure Relief for just the 3rd Function.

Does the Kioti kit also have these features?
Does the TKF on-off kit offer some feature that put's it ahead of the Kioti kit? Does the TKF kit have a custom fit on an NX like the Kioti kit does? I'm concerned about protection of the manifold and lines.

For the add-on 3rd function kit that diverts from front to back, is it compatible with either the Kioti or the TKF kit? If I already have 2 sets of rear remotes, where do the add-on kit rear remotes mount?

Thank you[/QUOTE]

The 3 features listed are custom to our TFK Kits. These (3) features are included in a proprietary Control Manifold that is the heart of our TFK Kits. Instead of just using a 4-way on-off solenoid valve off the Power Beyond of the Joystick Valve, we developed a custom control manifold to be able to offer the 3 features listed. It was important to us to make sure our TFK Kits could NOT dead head the hydraulic system while using the 3rd function. As we developed the manifold, we included the metering valve and the pressure relief so the 3rd function circuit was completely controlled.

We absolutely agree, we could talk about these different systems for hours, a comparative video would be a great way to "illustrate" the differences and features. Just need to find the time to pull it together. There is some additional information on the MIE Machinery website that describes our kits further.

The Rear Remote Option is only available on our TFK Kits. All of the MIE Kits are designed for "Custom Fit" for each tractor/loader model. Each kit is complete, including a mount at the loader torque tube for the front quick couplers.

Thanks for listening, hope this helps.