Tractor Sizing Compact TLB for cutting trails into a sloped hillside?

[agiardin]

I'm looking to buy a tractor for a number of things around the house. Long term it will be used for general utility stuff, which almost any tractor could do. But I do have some trails that I want to cut around my property to make it more accessible. It's a steeply sloped property, steep enough that you probably couldn't drive straight up. I'm wondering if a compact TLB would be an acceptable tool for cutting some trails (just big enough for the tractor) into the side of a hill.

I have the following concerns:
- Are the compact TLB backhoes powerful enough to dig through rocky soil?
- How much wider do I have to make the trail than the tractor? If it has to be significantly wider than the tractor, I'm going to need to move an unbelievable amount of dirt.
- How much slower would a compact TLB be than a mini excavator? I realize that the mini excavator is probably the right tool for the job, but buying a tractor and an excavator is beyond my budget. And this project is going to be done a little bit at a time, so renting probably isn't a great idea.

I've been considering the following models:
- Kubota B2601 w/ BH70 backhoe
- Kubota B2650/L2501/L3301 w/ BH77 backhoe.

These tractors have front buckets of between 54"-66". The width of the rear tires on the L3301 is 60", and the B2601 is a little narrower at 50". The stabilizers on the BH77 are 69" wide, and the BH70 is narrower at 73". Would the narrower tractor, with the less powerful and slightly shorter backhoe, actually be the better tool for the job since I could make the trails a little narrower? Or would it be better to go slightly wider and get a more capable tractor in general? Or is using a little TLB for this job a fool's errand in the first place?

 

[mikester]

Any machine where you have to climb off the operator seat and onto a backhoe seat is not very productive and you will start to hate it real quick. If you are moving a lot of earth a larger mini-ex with front blade or a small trim dozer will be more suitable than a CUT or SCUT with a backhoe attachment. Id suggest you try renting a compact TLB machine and trying it out on your site before making a decision.

If you have to make cuts, yank trees, move a lot of earth and move rocks then any machine under 5 tons is going to be a slow painful struggle. Get a thumb with the mini-ex. SCUTs with backhoes are great for digging small trenches in back yards with tight access but not well suited for making cuts, roads, and moving lots of soil.

 

[jeff9366]

Or is using a little TLB for this job a fool's errand?

Tractors are unstable working on slopes. With conditions you describe high probability of a rollover.

An excavator is the right machine. Excavator has a rear engine. Tracks are much more stable than tires. Excavator swivels 360 degrees.

Second choice would be a (rear engine) tracked skid steer usually termed a compact track loader. (CTL)

Have you considered the possibility of erosion undoing your work?

I'm looking to buy a tractor for a number of things around the house. Long term it will be used for general utility stuff, which almost any tractor could do.

Few here would agree with you that "almost any tractor could do."

How large is your property? How many acres do you plan to tractor over, long term?

 

[agiardin]

How large is your property? How many acres do you plan to tractor over, long term?

It's not a large property, about 10 acres. About 1.5 of that is flat already. I've marked out about 1500' of trail that I would like to ideally have, to get to the top of a hill behind the house, and also to maintain fire breaks around the perimeter.

 

[agiardin]

Tractors are unstable working on slopes. With conditions you describe high probability of a rollover.

An excavator is the right machine. Excavator has a rear engine. Tracks are much more stable than tires. Excavator swivels 360 degrees.

Second choice would be a (rear engine) tracked skid steer usually termed a compact track loader. (CTL)

Have you considered the possibility of erosion undoing your work?

I don't think a CTL would be able to do the job. A lot of the soil is very rocky. I've tried digging into the hillside with the FEL on an L-series (maybe 4000 pounds?) And it didn't work very well. I was very slowly chipping away and I don't think the FEL would have survived long being used like that.

I'm not too concerned about erosion. I don't get a lot of rain where I am, and the soil is so rocky that it's pretty stable on it's own. 2 years ago I cut some walking trails by hand into the hillside for a couple hundred feet, and they are still in great condition.

As far as rollover is concerned... If I start on a flat spot, and proceed up the mountain cutting a level trail into the side, the machine will only ever be on a level surface, right?

 

[jeff9366]

Describe your land by segment.

How much land is around the house?

How much land is occupied by formidable slope?

How many acres, less yard, less slope, do you plan to tractor over long term? What you do you foresee for this segment? Is it flat or sloped?

 

[jeff9366]

agiardin

I don't think a CTL would be able to do the job. A lot of the soil is very rocky. I've tried digging into the hillside with the FEL on an L-series (maybe 4000 pounds?) And it didn't work very well. I was very slowly chipping away and I don't think the FEL would have survived long being used like that.

A rear engine CTL is designed to lift and dig. Hydraulic pumps have much higher flow than tractors. Huge numbers of construction attachments are available. A 5,000 pound rear engine CTL is multiple times stronger for construction work, relative to a 5,000 pound front engine tractor.
Tractors are designed to pull.

An excavator or small bulldozer would be equipment of choice. CTL third choice.

I'm not too concerned about erosion. I don't get a lot of rain where I am, and the soil is so rocky that it's pretty stable on it's own. 2 years ago I cut some walking trails by hand into the hillside for a couple hundred feet, and they are still in great condition.

Just tell us what state you are in.

As far as rollover is concerned... If I start on a flat spot, and proceed up the mountain cutting a level trail into the side, the machine will only ever be on a level surface, right?

Wrong. I do not want to flame you. All writing here were new to tractors in the beginning.

The heavy work you describe should only be done from the tractor's (rear) Three Point Hitch. Tractor are designed to PULL.
Loaders are an option for those wishing to move relatively light, loose materials. Optional Backhoes are not that strong on COMPACT tractors due to low flow hydraulic pumps appropriate to machines designed to PULL and the stability problem is still out there.

 

[Diggin It]

It's a steeply sloped property, steep enough that you probably couldn't drive straight up. I'm wondering if a compact TLB would be an acceptable tool for cutting some trails (just big enough for the tractor) into the side of a hill.

- Are the compact TLB backhoes powerful enough to dig through rocky soil?

- How much wider do I have to make the trail than the tractor? If it has to be significantly wider than the tractor, I'm going to need to move an unbelievable amount of dirt.

Not a job for a tractor mounted backhoe.

Mine will dig rocky soil as long as it isn't overly dry. Any amount of recent rains make it possible.

You would never want to dig without the outriggers fully deployed. In my case, that makes the width about double that of the tractor itself.

I've tried digging into the hillside with the FEL on an L-series (maybe 4000 pounds?) And it didn't work very well. I was very slowly chipping away and I don't think the FEL would have survived long being used like that.

As far as rollover is concerned... If I start on a flat spot, and proceed up the mountain cutting a level trail into the side, the machine will only ever be on a level surface, right?

FELs are made for loading loose material, not digging.

Best laid plans and that guy Murphy say that level isn't what you might think it is.

 

[agiardin]

Here's a picture of what I'm dealing with. This is just about the steepest slope that I have. The tape measure on the ground is 66" long, for scale. As you can see, I really need to make this more accessible to clear this junk out.

This is in northern California, in the foothills.

 

[Diggin It]

Mine is probably one of the narrowest machines available and I need a width of 72" at least to be anything close to maneuverable.

Could I inch my up that trail, moving material from the right to the left? Maybe.

 

[finn1]

Mini excavator, or maybe a small dozer.

The Mini won稚 like the side slope much, so you will have to work ahead to level the side slope as you go.

I wouldn稚 try that with a light compact tractor.

 

[jeff9366]

This is in northern California, in the foothills.

I worked in Mendocino County, near Ukiah, for ten years. Portions of our vineyard ranches looked like that. We used such dry land for pig, bird and deer hunting.

We contracted bulldozers on the ranches regularly to rip for new vineyards and infrequently excavators for roads. We would not assume the risk of having non-professionals operate equipment in conditions pictured.

SAFETY FIRST.

 

[Egon]

A little tractor like a JD 4200 with frame mount backhoe would do the job for you. Only mentioned JD as I have one.

I would recommend welding on a much more substantial cutting edge with flat wear strip on the bottom and edges of the bucket. This makes it much stiffer.

For doing the work start at the bottom if using the backhoe use the hoe to pull yourself up hill. With the bucket start at the top and side dump. In both cases start flat and keep it that way. Make the trail as wide as possible within reason. Actually build the outside edge up slightly and do get the. Front wheels on it for some compaction. Do this at an angle as close to 90 degrees as possible. Do not get both wheels on one side on the outside edge at the same time.

I am familiar with road grade building in mountainous terrain, albite many years ago.

 

[Diggin It]

How hard are those gnarly trees? I'd be more concerned about digging those roots out that the rocky ground.

 

[agiardin]

How hard are those gnarly trees? I'd be more concerned about digging those roots out that the rocky ground.

The wood (Manzanita) is unbelievably hard, but luckily their root system is almost non existent. They rip right out of the ground with a gentle tug from a half ton pickup.

 

[agiardin]

An excavator is the right machine. Excavator has a rear engine. Tracks are much more stable than tires. Excavator swivels 360 degrees.

Second choice would be a (rear engine) tracked skid steer usually termed a compact track loader. (CTL)

The bummer about an excavator or dozer is that it would be a single purpose machine for me, and wouldn't help with things like maintaining my driveway, moving gravel around, making burn piles, etc... In that regard, a CTL would be much more appealing. But I'm just not sure if a CTL could really dig into the hillside, having never used one here.

 

[4570Man]

I don't think a CTL would be able to do the job. A lot of the soil is very rocky. I've tried digging into the hillside with the FEL on an L-series (maybe 4000 pounds?) And it didn't work very well. I was very slowly chipping away and I don't think the FEL would have survived long being used like that.

I'm not too concerned about erosion. I don't get a lot of rain where I am, and the soil is so rocky that it's pretty stable on it's own. 2 years ago I cut some walking trails by hand into the hillside for a couple hundred feet, and they are still in great condition.

As far as rollover is concerned... If I start on a flat spot, and proceed up the mountain cutting a level trail into the side, the machine will only ever be on a level surface, right?

A CTL will eat a tractor alive when it comes to digging. Although a mini excavator is probably the better tool. You’ll want a tilt attachment for the bucket if you’re using a CTL.

 

[cholland]

I would focus on long term needs with the tractor. A CUT would be great for maintaining your property. I also live in the rocky California foothills and would suggest renting a mini ex for a week or two for building your road/trail. Then use the tractor for the final grading and long term property work.

 

[Diggin It]

The bummer about an excavator or dozer is that it would be a single purpose machine for me,

But I'm just not sure if a CTL could really dig into the hillside, having never used one here.

I've never used one either, but I'm reasonably certain it will dig that trail better and safer than a tractor mounted BH. As to your single use issue:

I would focus on long term needs with the tractor. A CUT would be great for maintaining your property. I also live in the rocky California foothills and would suggest renting a mini ex for a week or two for building your road/trail. Then use the tractor for the final grading and long term property work.

Is the trail the only major digging project you have planned? At your stated 1,500' run, renting might be an option, but since you've never used one, you'll waste a lot of time learning and adapting. A contractor might be able to rough cut that 1,500 feet in a day or two which might be the lesser cost in the long run. Then take your time cleaning and grooming it on what will be a safer working surface for a novice.

 

[airbiscuit]

While I generally favor a larger tractor, I think your selections could work if you go slow and safe.