Backup generator 101, a few questions

[Jstpssng]

I was reading a few of the comments in the Water Well 101 thread which raised some questions about generators, but didn't want to hijack the thread.
Specifically

Originally Posted by MF RED in MT
We have a 8000+ wattage portable electric start generator specifically to run the well pump, refrigerator, and freezer, when ever the power goes out.

All I have to do is roll it to the back deck, plug it in, start it, and go inside to flip the switch in the transfer switch panel box.

And also the plus is, having some lights, TV, internet, and microwave...

KC

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LOL, we think alike!
I just upgraded to 9000 unit so that I can also use a few ceramic heaters. (hate hauling wood).
My setup is permanently wired via a switch box and I keep the genny battery on an intelligent charger.
I hate pulling that cord to start the genny, besides I suffer from COPD.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif]Power outages are not a problem but merely an inconvenience for us.

My 83 YO mother's current backup is a 5000 watt portable which is stored in the garage, in the rare event of a power outage (about every 2 years) she has to have somebody come drag it out, run an extension through the cellar door and plug it into the transfer box. She then has to go out and shut it off before going to bed, and I assume that it sets outside all night.
She doesn't want a whole house system, but I would like to set her up with an electric start unit on a small slab to be permanently wired into the house or at least with the wire buried so that all somebody needs to do is plug it in. She's got good neighbors who help look out from her-just as my father did all of his life for his elderly neighbors- but still wants to remain independent. Would the units mentioned above work for that purpose or is there something better? I am considering propane, to get away from the problems arising from old gasoline.
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[drssg]

I'm no expert, but if you're open to the expense of purchasing a new propane powered generator, why not go a little further and get a fully automated backup system? When the power goes off, there's no need to plug stuff in, remember to turn stuff off, or anything. She would just always have power.

I love having our Generac backup generator. Of course, we haven't had a significant power outage since it was installed. It doesn't take a huge generator to power the whole house. You just have to use a little common sense and not turn on every high power usage appliance at once when the generator is running.

 

[LouNY]

At 83 years old I would like to see her in an auto start and transfer system no messing around with breakers or shoveling snow to get to something and start it.
That said a smaller unit hard wired into some of the smaller transfer panels would work;
something like these are easy to install and use.
https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200321031_200321031
Some one would have to start the generator, then go in and transfer the loads.

 

[davrow]

You said she doesn't want a whole house system, but like drssg and LouNY say, a fully automated backup would be the way to go.

Does she own her home? Backup gen will increase home value. Does she have propane already? Bottled propane is not the way to go (low runtime compared to gas/diesel) but if the house is propane it is a great way to go (natural gas, too).

I still run extension cords to a portable genny, as we just don't have enough power failures to make it important. But I'll get around to it one day...

 

[RNeumann]

Many of the “portable” generators have electric start- all you need is a 240v version. The next step to permanence would be switching to natural gas or propane. The one you have may be able to be converted.

With electric start and a cord that is hard wired you have something that is fairly easy to get going while hopefully respecting your mom’s wishes.

 

[RalphVa]

We had a 4400 watt unit wired through a manual transfer switch. For the well pump, I had to leave it off, as we'd have water via the pressure tank for quite a while. When it needed repressurized, I had to go turn off all the breakers on the generator and then turn the well pump on long enough to build up the pressure. Then turn everything else back on, etc.

Of course the gasoline generator needed refueling about once/day. These activities, particularly having to drag it out, etc. is something I'd not be wanting an 83 year old to be doing.

We got some valuable running load information from that 4400 watt unit. So, we were able to put in a whole house 12.5 kw unit, and it will run the whole house, exclusive of the main 4 ton heat pump and the carriage house. There are 4 fancy Gentron boxes with circuitry that only allows those 4 breakers to come in if there isn't enough room on the generator. Never happens. Can run clothes drier, electric hot water heater and another couple big loads with never an apparent strain on the lovely Isuzu diesel driver sitting there using less than 0.3 gph of fuel. Without any backups for the year, it uses all of 2.5 gallons of diesel for 15 minutes of running every other week. One of the best things we ever installed was this "whole house" generator. A couple vendors of whole house generators wanted to put in 30 kw or so units in to do the job.

Ralph

 

[TheMan419]

Electric start and hard wired into the house is what I would do. Heck a lot of the electric start ones come w remote control. If you can fuel with natural gas or a large propane tank all the better.

We have a 7000 watt electric start. Runs the well, fridge, boiler pumps and a few lights no problem.

 

[Jstpssng]

Electric start and hard wired into the house is what I would do. Heck a lot of the electric start ones come w remote control. If you can fuel with natural gas or a large propane tank all the better.

We have a 7000 watt electric start. Runs the well, fridge, boiler pumps and a few lights no problem.

This is what I envision, although I hadn't even considered the remote starting. As mentioned previously she doesn't want a whole house, all that she really cares about is running the furnace, refrigerator and a couple of lights. I have been working on her to do something different because I don't like the generator setting outside on the driveway, or the cellar door being unlocked while the extension cord is running through it. More especially, I don't like the idea of her going outside in an ice storm to turn it off. She has good neighbors who keep an eye out... the last time the power was out one of them showed up in her pajamas to find out why there were no lights on.

 

[MF RED in MT]

I was reading a few of the comments in the Water Well 101 thread which raised some questions about generators, but didn't want to hijack the thread.
Specifically
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My 83 YO mother's current backup is a 5000 watt portable which is stored in the garage, in the rare event of a power outage (about every 2 years) she has to have somebody come drag it out, run an extension through the cellar door and plug it into the transfer box. She then has to go out and shut it off before going to bed, and I assume that it sets outside all night.
She doesn't want a whole house system, but I would like to set her up with an electric start unit on a small slab to be permanently wired into the house or at least with the wire buried so that all somebody needs to do is plug it in. She's got good neighbors who help look out from her-just as my father did all of his life for his elderly neighbors- but still wants to remain independent. Would the units mentioned above work for that purpose or is there something better? I am considering propane, to get away from the problems arising from old gasoline.
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My neighbor has his portable generator sitting outside on a concrete slab, under the stairs leading to the house and always connection to the transfer switch.

His generator is mostly protected from the weather.

I think you have a very good idea to have the generator located outside and easily connect to the transfer switch.

If I were you, I would get your mother:

1). A new remote electric start propane generator, locate it outside, and have it protected from the weather as required;

2). And have the new generator always connected to a new quality transfer switch that's easy for your mother to operate;

3). And have a quality no maintenance starting battery for the new generator;

4). And connect the no maintenance quality battery to a quality maintenance charging unit to always keep the battery charged;

5). And have a new quality rechargeable flashlight located in a convenient location incase your mother is in the dark;

6). And have a simple to follow written procedures for your mother to start the generator and also to stop the generator.

Having a system similar to this will aid your mother to easily start the generator and flip the transfer switch.

Good luck, KC

 

[grsthegreat]

Sorry, but at 83 and you don’t want her to have to do anything equals whole house. Just get a 7kw autostart with 8 circuit transfer switch. You mount transfer switch next to panel and move over 8 circuits to be powered up. GENERAC sells these for about $1,900 plus install. Doesn’t come any easier

 

[MF RED in MT]

Sorry, but at 83 and you don’t want her to have to do anything equals whole house. Just get a 7kw autostart with 8 circuit transfer switch. You mount transfer switch next to panel and move over 8 circuits to be powered up. GENERAC sells these for about $1,900 plus install. Doesn’t come any easier

That looks like a great system, did not know Generac had such a thing.

KC

 

[groundcover]

Absolutely get the LP auto start. Chances are mother isn’t getting any younger. Another cautionary tale after our ice event this weekend. Carbon monoxide exposure in New Hampshire: 1 dead, officials say

 

[buickanddeere]

Not saving anything purchasing an auto start system that does not supply the entire electrical panel .

 

[grsthegreat]

Not saving anything purchasing an auto start system that does not supply the entire electrical panel .

not so, i have many customers that dont want entire house on generator. they only want gas furnace, refer, freezers, some lights and microwave. they have no issues with it.

 

[dougtrr2]

I was looking into back up generators. My wife thinks we need one, I don't. I was looking at the Generac stuff. As I was talking to the guy at the home show he said that in today's world a whole house system is a much better selling point for a home. People tend to be lazy and don't want to have to be without their air conditioning. The price difference was not that much more to go to a fully automatic whole house system. Once you go past just powering a furnace, freezer and fridge you might just as well go the whole way.

Doug in SW IA

 

[grsthegreat]

I was looking into back up generators. My wife thinks we need one, I don't. I was looking at the Generac stuff. As I was talking to the guy at the home show he said that in today's world a whole house system is a much better selling point for a home. People tend to be lazy and don't want to have to be without their air conditioning. The price difference was not that much more to go to a fully automatic whole house system. Once you go past just powering a furnace, freezer and fridge you might just as well go the whole way.

Doug in SW IA

Yes and no. if a house has all electric heat and electric water heater, its hard to find an affordable whole house system to install that can power the entire thing. If on the other hand the house is all gas, than thats another matter all together. I have customers that have 80 amps of electric heat. the largest air cooled unit provides 94 amps at full load. Not going to work. But the same house can use an 11kw and a 16 circuit panel and be comfortable during outage as long as theres a supplemental source of heat.

 

[buickanddeere]

not so, i have many customers that dont want entire house on generator. they only want gas furnace, refer, freezers, some lights and microwave. they have no issues with it.

Some people think they are "saving" by making do with less. Down the road it makes the system less valuable . I have seen these auxiliary breaker panels for "essential loads" end up costing more for installation with time and labour . Vs if the entire panel had been supplied by a transfer switch. If they have went cheap and undersized the generator . Tell them to open the breakers to the electric stove, electric water heater and electric clothes dryer . They will feel better .

 

[buickanddeere]

I was looking into back up generators. My wife thinks we need one, I don't. I was looking at the Generac stuff. As I was talking to the guy at the home show he said that in today's world a whole house system is a much better selling point for a home. People tend to be lazy and don't want to have to be without their air conditioning. The price difference was not that much more to go to a fully automatic whole house system. Once you go past just powering a furnace, freezer and fridge you might just as well go the whole way.

Doug in SW IA

Amen Brother

 

[grsthegreat]

Some people think they are "saving" by making do with less. Down the road it makes the system less valuable . I have seen these auxiliary breaker panels for "essential loads" end up costing more for installation with time and labour . Vs if the entire panel had been supplied by a transfer switch. If they have went cheap and undersized the generator . Tell them to open the breakers to the electric stove, electric water heater and electric clothes dryer . They will feel better .

Sorry, but according to code, a whole house automatic backup system HAS TO POWER THE WHOLE HOUSE without interference from homeowner.
That’s what the auto load shed modules try to help with. You cannot get a system passed that requires homeowner to turn off a breaker. Only portable systems allow that feature.

 

[RalphVa]

For electric start, you need to have the battery on a battery tender. Even with the 4400 watt unit, I had a battery tender on it. Had to go out and do the starts by hand; whereas, the Isuzu generator and the Gentron panel are totally automatic. It'll run for 2 weeks, too.

Ralph