Water Well 101......A few questions from a water well newbie

[turnkey4099]

Must a well pump be submersed? Are some wells run with pump at top? Or would that take too much power to pull water up?
I have an irrigation pump with pipe about 200 feet into the lake and it does well. But I know horizontal pull and vertical are day and night.

They do not have to be submerged. A shallow well pump sets on top of the well head. There is a limit to how far above water it can be though. The theoretical 'lift' distance (suction) is about 33 ft above sea level. Due pipe restriction wear in pump, etc. etc. the working figure is about 25' and that is at seal level. There is a simple calculation for the loss in left for each foot above sea level. I don't recall what it is though.

 

[MarkF48]

I thought there was a way to check the life and/or performance status of a submersible pump by using an amp meter on each leg of the pump while it's running?

If you or someone knows about this, please school us homeowners, thanks.

KC

I have an old Amprobe clampon meter I leave on one of the wires going to the pump. Prior to having the well hydro-fracked due to a slow recovery rate, I was able to judge when the water level was getting to a point where the pump was going to have to run much longer to fill the tank and/or being close to a point where it wouldn't pump at all. On a good day when the well was likely recovered, the pump would pull around 4.9 amps to fill a 40 gallon tank. A load of wash, two showers, and other normal water things would put the pump down to about 4.3 amps, so it gave me an idea that the water level was low in the well. It seem backwards that the pump should be working harder to pull water from a greater depth and using less amps, but that's what happens as the delivery rate from the pump is less. With a new pump (1/2hp, same as old), a hydro-fracked well, and going deeper with the pump, the ammeter holds steady at about 5.0 amps for all the water usage I've had.
I had added a neon lamp pilot light to the side of the control box so I knew when the pump was operating. Also a 240 volt polarized plug as a disconnect so I can fully isolate the pump from the house wiring if a lightening storm is in the area.

 

[Valveman]

I thought there was a way to check the life and/or performance status of a submersible pump by using an amp meter on each leg of the pump while it's running?

If you or someone knows about this, please school us homeowners, thanks.

KC

Amps will tell you if the pump is performing as it should, but usually not much about the life that is left. That is unless the amps are over the service factor, then you don't have much time left at all. Ohms will tell you if there is any breakdown of insulation. But I have had pumps that shouldn't have even run according to the ohm meter, yet they lasted several more years. In the same way I have had pumps that ohmed out perfectly, and didn't last the night. Most pumps do not wear out gradually either. They work fine one minute and not the next.

One thing for sure like I said, pumps will always quit you at the worst time. Most pumps quit on Christmas, July the 4th, or at least on a Friday when you can't get any help and you have a house full of company. When people are out of water they have very little time to shop. Most will just do whatever the pump man says or has on the truck at the time. And the pump man will have on his truck whatever he makes the most money on, not what is best for the homeowner.

You can't really purchase a pump in advance and have one sitting there ready. The motor fluid will leak out over time and it won't be worth putting in the well. Plus, the pump man is not going to want to install a pump he didn't sell either. You are out of water. The pump man says if you want water this is what you get. It can very well be a hostage style negotiation.

Any way you can educate yourself before this happens is good. At the very least know how deep your well is, how deep to water, and what size pump you really need. Then when someone tries to sell you a bill of goods on a weekend, you can tell them to just put in a regular pump of the right size. After installing a regular submersible or jet pump with a normal diaphragm style tank and a pressure switch you will have a fairly dependable system. As has been said here, regular diaphragm pressure tank type systems are very long lived and dependable. All you have to do to make it last the longest time possible is limit the on/off cycles. Pumps are made to run 24/7, not to cycle on and off 24/7. Adding a Cycle Stop Valve will solve the problems normally associated with regular pressure tank type systems. The CSV will make those dependable systems even more dependable while delivering strong constant pressure to the shower. Most people notice those 40 to 60 fluctuation is shower pressure, especially after feeling the difference a constant 50 PSI from a CSV makes.

 

[Valveman]

It seem backwards that the pump should be working harder to pull water from a greater depth and using less amps, but that's what happens as the delivery rate from the pump is less.

The pump is not working harder. The amps are a direct reflection of how hard the pump is working. So when the water level in the well drops, the pump cannot pump as much water, and the amps decrease. That is exactly what I mean that pumps are counter intuitive. In the same way the amps of the pump decrease when the flow is restricted with a valve. The valve is just making the pump think the water is deeper and the amps drop because it isn't putting out as much water. Pumping water is the work for a pump, more so than the lift. The CSV just restricts the flow from the pump so it can't produce more water than is being used. The CSV stops the cycling by making the amount of water coming out of the pump exactly match the amount being used. Without a CSV a regular pump produces max flow all the time, and it just cycles on and off filling and draining a pressure tank, and that is not a good thing.

 

[hawkeye08]

Valveman, Does the CSV cause increased pressure between the pump and CSV?

 

[MarkF48]

The pump is not working harder. The amps are a direct reflection of how hard the pump is working. So when the water level in the well drops, the pump cannot pump as much water, and the amps decrease. That is exactly what I mean that pumps are counter intuitive. In the same way the amps of the pump decrease when the flow is restricted with a valve. The valve is just making the pump think the water is deeper and the amps drop because it isn't putting out as much water. Pumping water is the work for a pump, more so than the lift. The CSV just restricts the flow from the pump so it can't produce more water than is being used. The CSV stops the cycling by making the amount of water coming out of the pump exactly match the amount being used. Without a CSV a regular pump produces max flow all the time, and it just cycles on and off filling and draining a pressure tank, and that is not a good thing.

That's what I said, " seem backwards that the pump should be working harder, ...., but that's what happens as the delivery rate from the pump is less"

 

[aczlan]

Valveman, Does the CSV cause increased pressure between the pump and CSV?

Looking at his patents, yes.
The way that it works is that the CSV is more or less the same as a pressure regulator with a small bypass line (which allows a metered amount of water to bypass the CSV and let the pump get fresh water in to cool itself so the pressure tank slowly fills after demand stops).
It is plumbed: Pump>CSV>Tank (on a tee)>Pressure Switch>House. Say you set the CSV for 55PSI and have a 40/60 pressure switch.
When off, the system sits at 60PSI, when you turn something on, it drops the pressure after the valve to 40PSI, the pump turns on and the CSV reduces the output pressure of the pump to 50PSI. The pressure before the CSV may be 80PSI, but all the house is seeing is enough flow to keep the system at 50PSI. When the demand stops, the bypass notches in the pressure regulator let water past so the tank pressure builds to the shutoff pressure (60PSI in this case)
You could do the same thing with a standard pressure regulator and a 1/8" or 1/4" line (with a needle valve in it to control flow) that bypasses the pressure regulator.

That's what I said, " seem backwards that the pump should be working harder, ...., but that's what happens as the delivery rate from the pump is less"

That is because (for a submerged pump) the "head pressure" of the water above the pump is forcing water into the pump, so the pump has more water coming in and it can pump more water out. As the level approaches the level of the pump, there is less head pressure and less water enters the pump, so it pumps less.

Aaron Z

 

[PILOON]

You gotta remember the pump cycles are controlled by pressure drop which in turn will be affected by the compressible air space in the tank. The tank water volume is not the controlling factor.

Egon, well said.
All to say that you don't want leaky valves or faulty toilet valves.
If U are not drawing any water the system should never re cycle.

 

[PILOON]

Average life is 8 years ???
Heck mine is over 24 and other than the pressure tank rupturing* (replaced with fiberglass one ) and the occasional pressure switch I'm still going strong.

*The metal tank made rust which abated the bladder and caused leaks and the glass tank cured that problem. (so far, I think. Makes sense)

I'll add that the pressure switch is a routine maintenance item as the contact points do need occasional polishing as they do get pitted.
Either polish or replace from time to time. (LOL, I do have a spare set on hand)
Think older cars and replacement of the distributer points as well as sand blasting the spark plugs.

 

[Valveman]

Looking at his patents, yes.
The way that it works is that the CSV is more or less the same as a pressure regulator with a small bypass line (which allows a metered amount of water to bypass the CSV and let the pump get fresh water in to cool itself so the pressure tank slowly fills after demand stops).
It is plumbed: Pump>CSV>Tank (on a tee)>Pressure Switch>House. Say you set the CSV for 55PSI and have a 40/60 pressure switch.
When off, the system sits at 60PSI, when you turn something on, it drops the pressure after the valve to 40PSI, the pump turns on and the CSV reduces the output pressure of the pump to 50PSI. The pressure before the CSV may be 80PSI, but all the house is seeing is enough flow to keep the system at 50PSI. When the demand stops, the bypass notches in the pressure regulator let water past so the tank pressure builds to the shutoff pressure (60PSI in this case)
You could do the same thing with a standard pressure regulator and a 1/8" or 1/4" line (with a needle valve in it to control flow) that bypasses the pressure regulator.


That is because (for a submerged pump) the "head pressure" of the water above the pump is forcing water into the pump, so the pump has more water coming in and it can pump more water out. As the level approaches the level of the pump, there is less head pressure and less water enters the pump, so it pumps less.

Aaron Z

Thanks Aaron
That was an excellent description. And yes Hawkeye, the CSV is a valve, so when it closes there is more pressure on the inlet side like any valve. But as I explained, even though it is counter intuitive, increasing back pressure on the pump is a good thing making the pump work easier, draw lower amps or use less power. Here is a video that explains how it works with gauges to show back pressure and amps.

And yes a pressure regulator with a small bypass or a hole drilled through the middle should work, which is how we started making them in 1992. However, we quickly leaned that the needle valve in the bypass or a drilled hole will clog the same way holes in a shower head clog. Jetting water through a small hole causes the minerals to build up and plug the hole. This bypass "hole" is extremely important as it allows enough flow through to cool the pump and motor. When the hole or bypass tube clogs, the pump will melt down in a few minutes. If you read the patents you would see that we opted for a bypass "notch" instead. Basically when the CSV closes, two half moon notches come together to create the right sized bypass hole. But because it s a pressure operated valve, if the hole gets clogged the pressure drops, which is what opens the valve, and the two half moons split in half to flush out any debris. There were several other devices on the market that had bypass tubes or drilled holes and the clogging problem kept them from being a dependable means of pump control. The patented bypass notch solved all those problems and made the CSV bullet proof as a pump control system.

How a Pressure Tank Works and why you need a Cycle Stop Valve on Vimeo