Water Well 101......A few questions from a water well newbie

[not2old]

I don't remember what the problem turned out to be, but I was incapacitated at the time due to an interaction between my motorcycle and a deer so I called the local electrician/plumber/well guy.
I had him remove the fancy controller with a small pressure tank and install an old fashioned pressure switch with 80 gallon tank. That was in 2003. The switch burned out about a year later and then again in another year. I replaced the common cheap switch with a heavier unit that cost about $150.00, that features replaceable contacts. I had to replace the tank last year and I have had to do nothing since and am able to repair this simple system myself. No waiting for someone to show up and no $100.00 per hour or more labour charge. I have the pressure set for 65-85 and have regulated the house to 60psi. No pressure changes to any taps except my yard hydrants which are connected to full pressure, which makes the boss very happy. If I had too much money, I'd add another tank with a check valve to prevent having to wait to hook up the generator if the power goes out while the hydrants are in use.

 

[PILOON]

Heck properly installed there should be no more than 2 PSI difference between pump start and tank pressure.
On my system when showering I never know if and when the pump cycles.
Same when the wife is doing a washer load while showering.

 

[goeduck]

It seems to me that 95% of the time I have NO water usage and it makes sense for the pump to be OFF. A variable speed running 100% of the time (or nearly) makes no sense to me. A soft start does make sense to me, but not a VFD running continuously when it comes to a well pump. More likely the use is for businesses and production, but not when the pump should be OFF most of the time.

 

[Valveman]

It seems to me that 95% of the time I have NO water usage and it makes sense for the pump to be OFF. A variable speed running 100% of the time (or nearly) makes no sense to me. A soft start does make sense to me, but not a VFD running continuously when it comes to a well pump. More likely the use is for businesses and production, but not when the pump should be OFF most of the time.

Well everything about a pump system is counter intuitive. Soft start is not a good thing for a submersible, and a variable speed pump doesn't run all the time. The thrust bearing in a submersible pump needs a film of water between the plates, which doesn't happen until the pump is spinning at least 50% of full speed. Until the pump is at half speed, the bearing is running dry and destroying itself. A quick start gets lubrication to the Kingsbury thrust bearing. A slow start drags the plates on the bearing with every start.

Also a variable speed or VFD type pump should only run when you are using water and shuts off the pump when no water is being used. However, most of the newer VFD's just cycle the pump off and on all the time water is being used, just like a regular pressure switch. The "rumors" about how a VFD or a CSV work greatly exaggerate or are just completely wrong about there function.

 

[Valveman]

I don't remember what the problem turned out to be, but I was incapacitated at the time due to an interaction between my motorcycle and a deer so I called the local electrician/plumber/well guy.
I had him remove the fancy controller with a small pressure tank and install an old fashioned pressure switch with 80 gallon tank. That was in 2003. The switch burned out about a year later and then again in another year. I replaced the common cheap switch with a heavier unit that cost about $150.00, that features replaceable contacts. I had to replace the tank last year and I have had to do nothing since and am able to repair this simple system myself. No waiting for someone to show up and no $100.00 per hour or more labour charge. I have the pressure set for 65-85 and have regulated the house to 60psi. No pressure changes to any taps except my yard hydrants which are connected to full pressure, which makes the boss very happy. If I had too much money, I'd add another tank with a check valve to prevent having to wait to hook up the generator if the power goes out while the hydrants are in use.

Like I said those variable speed pumps and there "fancy controllers" are designed to make as much money as possible from the homeowner. But the big tank and pressure switch is still not the answer. The pressure switch burning up every year or so and having to replace the tank are just signs you are cycling the pump to death. With luck the pressure switch and tank will be replaced a few times before this cycling burns up the pump, but not always. Many times the pump goes out too often as well. You cannot put on a large enough tank to stop the cycling. Adding a simple Cycle Stop Valve stops the cycling.

Your 65/85 switch and 60 PSI regulator is giving you constant pressure to the house, but the pump is cycling itself to death while you are using water. A CSV set at 60 PSI would also deliver 60 PSI constant to the house, and the pump would be running continuously as long as you are using more than 1 GPM. Pumps are made for continuous use (24/7/365 running) and will last longer when running continuous than when cycling on and off all day. I have a pump is a stock water system that hasn't shut off in 18 years. But you really only need the pump to run while more than 1 GPM is being used, which is how a CSV works.
How a Pressure Tank Works and why you need a Cycle Stop Valve on Vimeo

 

[Egon]

You gotta remember the pump cycles are controlled by pressure drop which in turn will be affected by the compressible air space in the tank. The tank water volume is not the controlling factor.

 

[turnkey4099]

Heck properly installed there should be no more than 2 PSI difference between pump start and tank pressure.
On my system when showering I never know if and when the pump cycles.
Same when the wife is doing a washer load while showering.

I used to be able to tell when the pump kicked on but I replaced the shower head with a new one on a hose. Canj't tell any more.

 

[turnkey4099]

I don't remember what the problem turned out to be, but I was incapacitated at the time due to an interaction between my motorcycle and a deer so I called the local electrician/plumber/well guy.
I had him remove the fancy controller with a small pressure tank and install an old fashioned pressure switch with 80 gallon tank. That was in 2003. The switch burned out about a year later and then again in another year. I replaced the common cheap switch with a heavier unit that cost about $150.00, that features replaceable contacts. I had to replace the tank last year and I have had to do nothing since and am able to repair this simple system myself. No waiting for someone to show up and no $100.00 per hour or more labour charge. I have the pressure set for 65-85 and have regulated the house to 60psi. No pressure changes to any taps except my yard hydrants which are connected to full pressure, which makes the boss very happy. If I had too much money, I'd add another tank with a check valve to prevent having to wait to hook up the generator if the power goes out while the hydrants are in use.

I drilled a new well in 1993. Still running on the original pump. Had to replace the dpressure switch a month ago. Only real maintenance has been cleaning out the small 1/8" riser pipe the switch sets on. It gets plugged up and needs cleaning about every 10 years. Per the pump sellers, I should be on my 3rd pump by now. I wonder how many people actually sucker when told that they need a new pump after 7 years.

 

[RalphVa]

All of us in rural central Va seem to have submersible pumps down at least about 150 ft down about a 6" pipe and pumps anywhere from 2 to 20 gpm, depending on what the well driller happened to find. The pumps seem to go on forever. Think ours is the original ~1986 pump. It's now showing signs that it could be close to needing service, as it gets a tad of air (from back draining a tad sitting over night) occasionally, not all the time. (there's a tiny tiny air leak in the upper part of the pump discharge line, obviously)

Anyway, ours is only about 2 gpm through about a 20 gallon pressure tank in the basement. Think it goes on at around 25 psi and off around 45 psi. We do not notice when it cycles with typically only 1 or 2 faucets in use. If one faucet is running full, like to run level up on the swimming pool or to provide garden irrigation, one definitely notices lack of pressure to get a good shower or to wash dishes. Think in running full like this, I've estimated that we get 1.8 gpm.

Others have mentioned running the pump off a generator. When we had the little 4400 watt generator, we'd have to shut off the well pump to run our lights, 2 frigs, tvs, pooters and 2 freezers. Then when the pressure got low on the pressure tank or when we didn't have much water flow, I'd have to manually turn all the breakers off to start the well pump on that little generator. Now, with our 12.5 kw "whole house" diesel generator, no problem. Runs everything but the carriage house and big heat pump, essentially, incl. clothes drier and one of the electric hot water heaters. Never know when the water pumps kicks in and out, unless letting one faucet run freely.

There's newer technology out there, like brushless pumps, variable speed, DC pumps (ones typically on a solar system) that would last as long and be a lot more "backup power friendly" or maybe not even have much psi difference between on & off. I'd check into them, but you certainly cannot beat the dependability of the old 240v/20 gallon pressure tank system.

Ralph

 

[goeduck]

Well everything about a pump system is counter intuitive. Soft start is not a good thing for a submersible, and a variable speed pump doesn't run all the time. The thrust bearing in a submersible pump needs a film of water between the plates, which doesn't happen until the pump is spinning at least 50% of full speed. Until the pump is at half speed, the bearing is running dry and destroying itself. A quick start gets lubrication to the Kingsbury thrust bearing. A slow start drags the plates on the bearing with every start.

Also a variable speed or VFD type pump should only run when you are using water and shuts off the pump when no water is being used. However, most of the newer VFD's just cycle the pump off and on all the time water is being used, just like a regular pressure switch. The "rumors" about how a VFD or a CSV work greatly exaggerate or are just completely wrong about there function.

Very interesting. Sounds like a reason to stay with a traditional setup? To me anyway. Simple.