Dirt Moving Rear hydraulic remote .

K5lwq · Mar 25, 2020

ovrszd said:
In my efforts to resolve my issue, your statement above is my conclusion.

If it's valve failure, I have 5 bad valves on 2 tractors. I struggle to believe that.

I have to agree with you. Highly unlikely all you valves are bad. If they are, you should buy a lottery ticket! Also, being one of the smartest guys on this forum, if have not found a solution, likely one doesn't exist. The solution is going to be the best work around.

The question we don't know the answer is if the OP situation is worse than you and others are experiencing? Seems like he is getting more air than most.

With respect to your other implements, the more I think about it very few applications are like the top links.

I am not sure if I have adjusted top link with the implement off the ground. Probably more of habit than anything because all the years of manual top link adjustments. I always did those on the ground because it is easier. I guess I could try it to see if I get a similar result.

K5lwq · Mar 25, 2020

Npalen and country, both are reasonable suggestions but Richard already tried that with no success. I do believe if we could find a real fix to this issue, we would save a lot of frustration for those with this issue. It still boggles my mind how some experience this problem while others don't. It really could be the different ways we use the top link. :confused3:

npalen · Mar 25, 2020

countrybumpkin said:
And this is why they came up with regen valves for front end loaders.

I wonder if a simple set of fluid restrictors in the end of the hose at the coupler on the retract side would slow the flow down enough to help.

I always figured that the loader regen valves were simply to speed up the bucket dump but may very well kill two birds with one stone, the second bird being air behind the piston. Would be interesting to see what effect a regen spool would have on the top link cylinder issues.
Good stuff, countrybumpkin!

Edit: I just remembered that the top link cylinder on my Mahindra 3015 is powered via a selector valve that switches the flow from the bucket spool to the top link! The bucket spool happens to have regen as the fourth position. Sounds like I need to do some testing to see if there is any benefit to extending the tilt cylinder with regen rather than "slow dump".

Would appreciate any suggestions on test procedure.

bryn67 · Mar 26, 2020

K5lwq said:
This is my opinion on what happened. When you connected the hose back after test a little air was introduced. Then when you cycled the cylinder with the rake connect, the weight of the rake caused system to pull more air each time you extended the cylinder. It appears to me that extending the cylinder with weight allows the system to pull air.

When you tried to bleed the hose by pushing in on the ball more air was introduced. The bubbling was from air going in, not out. Then more cycling with weight pulled more air.

Leaving the cylinder under pressure over night you will certainly see it goes in a good bit because of internal leakage of the remote valve. This is normal on most valves and some are worse than others.

Do you have a front loader? If so, have you had any issues with it?

Again, just my opinion, but I think something is going on with your remote valve. If you have a friend with a tractor that would not mind trying the top link I think you would see it perform differently.

My procedure using what you have would be cycle the cylinder before attaching the rake. Then don't touch the remote valve. Attach and lift the rake with 3pt and go to the area I was going to be working. I would then lower the rake to the ground by lower the 3pt and then adjust my top link. As long as the adjustments made on the top link were with the implement on the ground, I think it would work.

Sorry you are having troubles and hope you stay with it so we can all learn from this issue.

Well overnight the ram went in 20mm with rake resting on ground( dolly ) so that it moves which I consider to be ok. This morning I cycled the top link after disconnected rake about 10 times slowly. I refitted the top link without operating the the ram, using a trolley jack to line up the top link pin. Then used 3 point to lift, at this point the top link was about 50/50 in/out and travelled 500m to test area. Ram did not move during this time. Dropped rake gently and ram moves in to about 1/4 out. Did a few runs with the rake and top link did not seem to be moving a great deal. The best results so far. Lift rake with 3 point and fully retract top link . Travel back with no movement in ram. Back in shed adjust top link to 85mm extended and lower 3 point rake onto dolly and ram moves in to 55mm extended. Leaving overnight. While the results today are an improvement I worry what it’s like with a box blade or slasher extra weight. Hope all makes sense to you.

K5lwq · Mar 26, 2020

bryn67 said:
Well overnight the ram went in 20mm with rake resting on ground( dolly ) so that it moves which I consider to be ok. This morning I cycled the top link after disconnected rake about 10 times slowly. I refitted the top link without operating the the ram, using a trolley jack to line up the top link pin. Then used 3 point to lift, at this point the top link was about 50/50 in/out and travelled 500m to test area. Ram did not move during this time. Dropped rake gently and ram moves in to about 1/4 out. Did a few runs with the rake and top link did not seem to be moving a great deal. The best results so far. Lift rake with 3 point and fully retract top link . Travel back with no movement in ram. Back in shed adjust top link to 85mm extended and lower 3 point rake onto dolly and ram moves in to 55mm extended. Leaving overnight. While the results today are an improvement I worry what it痴 like with a box blade or slasher extra weight. Hope all makes sense to you.

It makes perfect sense. I would say we are on the way to a usable tool. A couple suggestions.

1. With the rake off and you are cycling the cylinder, going slow doesn't help. You can do this as fast as you want.

2. When hooking to an implement you can make adjustments to the top link and it should not get air.

3. Make all adjustments to the top link with the implement on the ground. Weight pulling on the cylinder seems to be the trigger. If you want to have the cylinder fully retracted for transport, do it before lifting the 3pt. When you set it on the dolly, lower it with 3pt then adjust the top link. Now, if when you lower the 3pt and the rake is not touching the ground or dolly, and the only way to set it down is by extending the top link, try to only retract the cylinder that much before lifting for transport. In other words, don't retract all the way for transport.

I do not understand why your set up so easily introduces air, but you will have to work around that to enjoy the benefits of hydraulic top link. So the thing to remember, no weight on top link, adjust all you want. Weight on top link, don't adjust at all.

If when the 3pt is all the way down and the rake doesn't touch the ground with cylinder fully retracted, consider setting your lift arms to the lowest setting. You may already have it set that way. As you learn the best practices for your situation, it will become second nature and you will not even notice. I have never paid attention to what I do, but believe I have always adjust mine with weight off.

Hope that makes sense to you and hopefully the smarter guys will invent a solution to fix this problem. :thumbsup:

ptsg · Mar 26, 2020

K5lwq said:
Npalen and country, both are reasonable suggestions but Richard already tried that with no success. I do believe if we could find a real fix to this issue, we would save a lot of frustration for those with this issue. It still boggles my mind how some experience this problem while others don't. It really could be the different ways we use the top link. :confused3:

Well, we know what the fix is, it's easily available and it's called a double pilot check valve with the advantage of losing float if that's a problem.

I think we need to figure out what causes the issue. I remembered reading threads that Kubota's remotes are prone to drift a lot, which would cause this symptom. But on a Ford or Kioti, I don't recall reading about this issue.

bryn67 · Mar 26, 2020

K5lwq said:
It makes perfect sense. I would say we are on the way to a usable tool. A couple suggestions.

1. With the rake off and you are cycling the cylinder, going slow doesn't help. You can do this as fast as you want.

2. When hooking to an implement you can make adjustments to the top link and it should not get air.

3. Make all adjustments to the top link with the implement on the ground. Weight pulling on the cylinder seems to be the trigger. If you want to have the cylinder fully retracted for transport, do it before lifting the 3pt. When you set it on the dolly, lower it with 3pt then adjust the top link. Now, if when you lower the 3pt and the rake is not touching the ground or dolly, and the only way to set it down is by extending the top link, try to only retract the cylinder that much before lifting for transport. In other words, don't retract all the way for transport.

I do not understand why your set up so easily introduces air, but you will have to work around that to enjoy the benefits of hydraulic top link. So the thing to remember, no weight on top link, adjust all you want. Weight on top link, don't adjust at all.

If when the 3pt is all the way down and the rake doesn't touch the ground with cylinder fully retracted, consider setting your lift arms to the lowest setting. You may already have it set that way. As you learn the best practices for your situation, it will become second nature and you will not even notice. I have never paid attention to what I do, but believe I have always adjust mine with weight off.

Hope that makes sense to you and hopefully the smarter guys will invent a solution to fix this problem. :thumbsup:

Ok sounds good but will probably have to print it out , laminate it and stick it somewhere convenient. lol . Will let you know what happens next. Thanks for your help.

K5lwq · Mar 26, 2020

ptsg said:
Well, we know what the fix is, it's easily available and it's called a double pilot check valve with the advantage of losing float if that's a problem.

I think we need to figure out what causes the issue. I remembered reading threads that Kubota's remotes are prone to drift a lot, which would cause this symptom. But on a Ford or Kioti, I don't recall reading about this issue.

I agree that will fix it if air doesn't get introduced. I am not convinced that it will help keeping air out in the first place. It might, just have never used one for that purpose. If a person wanted float, they could add a electric over hydraulic valve tying the two hoses together using tees. Want float, flip the switch. It would be a expensive addition and might be very difficult because of the limited space we have on smaller tractors.

ptsg · Mar 26, 2020

K5lwq said:
I agree that will fix it if air doesn't get introduced. I am not convinced that it will help keeping air out in the first place. It might, just have never used one for that purpose. If a person wanted float, they could add a electric over hydraulic valve tying the two hoses together using tees. Want float, flip the switch. It would be a expensive addition and might be very difficult because of the limited space we have on smaller tractors.

In my mind, I can't see how air gets in without a visible leak on the cylinder but it might be possible. I keep thinking the air comes from the valve somehow.