Mahindra no DPF and no Regen?

[Rmiked]

I love my Tier II 5065e so its not an issue for me. But for you guys that have Tier 4 machines and follow this emissions issue, what do you think of Mahindra and them making an engine with no DPF, no DEF and no Regen? I am an Engineer and find this intriguing. I am sure JD Engineers have their reasons, as well as Kubota and others. Seems like a big deal to me. Did anyone with a Tier 4 Deere consider Mahindra for these reasons? Just curious. Again, I bought my first tractor (2013 5065e) when I did to miss these complexities and I am keeping it until I die. But hearing the Mahindra ads and seeing some Utubes has my curiosity. What is the story? Thanks

 

[WM75Guy]

My Tier 4 New Holland Workmaster 75 uses DOC, so no DPF, regen, or DEF. Probably that is what Mahindra is using. Instead of intermittent regens of 900 degrees to clear the filter it runs a constant 300 degrees is how it was explained to me.

 

[Rmiked]

Wow. I was unaware any other manufacturers did same thing as Mahindra. I heard a guy on a U-tube claim Mahindra was unique. Seems like a significant plus to avoid the DPF and Regen. However, I have heard guys with Tier 4 machines that have DPF and Regen saying it worked well so far and their fears did not materialize (yet) into problems.

 

[rademamj1]

Mahindra does indeed use DOC, and it's a system that burns diesel particulates and gases in a rare earth ceramic catalyst. It is considered a minimal emission system and should the EPA ever increase their diesel particulate (DP) standards, Mahindra will be forced into the world of DPF. Companies like Kubota, John Deere and many others who have already shifted to DPF Technology, should already meet any future DP standards from EPA, no matter how stringent they maybe.

The DPF is basically a good system, but you must operate your diesel at higher rpm than most normally do, this to encourage automatic regens as you work. Consistent short time use of a tractor, at low rpm can quickly fill the DPF with particulates. So the harder you work your tractor, the better your DPF gets cleaned.

 

[Rmiked]

So I assume then Deere and Kubota do not use DOC (diesel oxidation catalyst) and the use of DPF and Regen avoids design changes if standards get more restrictive? I figured there had to be some sort of trade-off. However if standards changed in future, the DOC machines would be legit (grandfathered) and a current owner wouldn’t be worse off for having DOC. I’m guessing Deere sees some downside to DOC on reliability compared to DPF and Regen? Interesting the choices manufacturers make. I’m still liking my 2013 vintage Tier 2 machine but I like to attempt to keep up

 

[CowboyRon]

It works fine on my Mahindra, but there are drawbacks to the new setup. I never idle it below 1500, and this thing drinks like a sailor.
My 2011 4025 sips fuel.

 

[rademamj1]

Yes indeed. When EPA increases diesel emissions standards, it only applies to future manufactured vehicles, and all previous vehicles made prior to the new rules are grandfathered. Don't let the type of emission used by any tractor be a factor in your choice. Just be aware, if you purchase any DPF tractor, you will need to operate that tractor at higher RPMs.

Diesel tractor engines are tough and can operate for 4000 to 5000 hours at high rpm. Just look at diesel generators, many I know have 6000 to 10,000 hours on those diesels, running at 2500rpm for weeks.

By the way, Europe already has gone to Tier5 diesel emission standards, and all such vehicles are required to be DPF equipped. About 50% of vehicles on the road are diesel in Europe. Eventually the US will follow such standards.

 

[Rmiked]

Understood about the higher rpms. My 2013 5065E ideals around 800 rpm according to my tachometer, but it is Tier 2. I was unaware however that the Tier 4 engines idled higher. I believe I am seeing the rating rpm of Tier 4 JD at 2100 rpm vs mine at 2400 rpm. Don’t know why the rating rpm would be lower.

 

[jeff9366]

There are numerous reports on T-B-N of Mahindra sales personnel telling tractor shoppers that Mahindra tractors do not have a DPF and do not regenerate, both true; implying Mahindra is Tier IV compliant without emission control components. Not true, of coarse.

Beginning about thirty-three horsepower most tractors have Diesel Particulate Filters.
A few Tier IV compliant tractors between 26 and 75 hp use DOC (Diesel Oxidation Catalyst) conversion. Mahindra is one. Mahindra DOC is of similar construction to DPF. Both DPF and DOC are honeycomb ceramic filters which supersede the muffler. The DOC forces engine exhaust over a honeycomb ceramic structure coated with platinum, palladium, and rhodium. These catalysts oxidize carbon monoxide and hydrocarbons into carbon dioxide and water at hot exhaust temperature.

Mahindra has a DOC oven hot all the time, DPF tractors have an oven hot intermittently.

There is no free lunch.

The average residential tractor operates sixty engine hours per year, according to industry surveys.

3,000 hours DPF Life / 60 hours = 50 years of residential use prior to DPF replacement.

Diesel Particulate Filter supersedes tractor muffler.
At some point in time DPF needs to be replaced.
At some point in time tractors with mufflers need the muffler replaced.
At some point in time DOC needs to be replaced.

Tire wear and tire replacement will cause as many headaches and more expense than DPF/DOC for most long term compact tractor owners who read and comprehend their Operator's Manual.

For a commercial farmer operating tractor engine 300 to 400 hours per year DPF/DOC will require replacement more often than once in fifty years.

 

[Rmiked]

Jeff9366, thanks for that perspective on emissions. And I hear you on tire replacement. Ugh!

 

[Motorboatin]

Wow. I was unaware any other manufacturers did same thing as Mahindra. I heard a guy on a U-tube claim Mahindra was unique. Seems like a significant plus to avoid the DPF and Regen. However, I have heard guys with Tier 4 machines that have DPF and Regen saying it worked well so far and their fears did not materialize (yet) into problems.

My 50hp Massey doesn’t have DPF or a regen cycle

 

[beenthere]

My 50hp Massey doesn’t have DPF or a regen cycle

Uses DOC (diesel oxidation catalyst) and exhaust-gas recirculation.

 

[Motorboatin]

Uses DOC (diesel oxidation catalyst) and exhaust-gas recirculation.

And doesn’t have the regen cycle that everyone cries about

 

[ptsg]

And doesn’t have the regen cycle that everyone cries about

As said before, there is no free lunch.

You don't a regen cycle but if you don't run at high RPMs or idle too much, the DOC will be the one crying and if the thing gets worse, it's your wallet that will cry after visiting the dealer.

I don't think either system is better than the other. These things just came to give bad fame to manufacturers, from tractors to car, trucks, whatever.

It's amazing how those Cummins, CAT and other engines on trucks were so reliable and could stand millions of miles without any issues and now you can start having problems almost right after you left the dealer with a brand new truck. And the problems are always related to the emission stuff they added to the engines.

Branson also uses a DOC. Which accordingly to Mahindra also doesn't have DPF or Regen. In reality, it's not true. There are some member that have had problems with it still. But on a Branson, since it's a fully mechanical engine, so it's not full of computers to control it, you can simple gut the DOC and unplug the datalogger and you're good to go with a tractor that you can run at whatever RPM you want. Some member also went the extra step, took the DOC off and replaced with a muffler.

 

[Rmiked]

PTSG, if you removed the DOC, obviously the warranty is void.But is it illegal? I mean if you are doing your own repairs I guess your position is, “ this whole issue is dumb and it is my personal liberty to do what I want to keep machine reliable?”

I have seen several Utubes where guys say it is not that bad (regen cycle) and for hobbyists (non-business applications) it only happens twice per year. I was not aware that some larger applications (Cummings, CAT) have reliability issues early from Emissions add-ons. I wonder if the emissions reductions from Diesel engines is having a meaningful positive impact on the environment. It just seems overkill to me to introduce this level of complexity with added sensors and components to a tractor that never receives a license plate to drive on the road.

I recently (1.5 years) bought a new Stihl chainsaw, MS-362. The newest model has a microprocessor to control air/fuel mixture that adapts at different elevations. I could not stand he idea of being in the woods wit my chainsaw and thinking is contains a computer. One more thing to fail that I can’t fix. I happen to find a new (in box) model without the microprocessor looking in the stockroom of business. The sales guy was apologizing for it not having the processor while I’m putting my arms around the box assuring I can buy it. That’s the same way I feel about all this complexity. No sense crying about it. It’s here, deal with it. But I am hearing some guys saying it’s not that big a deal .

 

[ptsg]

PTSG, if you removed the DOC, obviously the warranty is void.But is it illegal? I mean if you are doing your own repairs I guess your position is, “ this whole issue is dumb and it is my personal liberty to do what I want to keep machine reliable?”

I have seen several Utubes where guys say it is not that bad (regen cycle) and for hobbyists (non-business applications) it only happens twice per year. I was not aware that some larger applications (Cummings, CAT) have reliability issues early from Emissions add-ons. I wonder if the emissions reductions from Diesel engines is having a meaningful positive impact on the environment. It just seems overkill to me to introduce this level of complexity with added sensors and components to a tractor that never receives a license plate to drive on the road.

I recently (1.5 years) bought a new Stihl chainsaw, MS-362. The newest model has a microprocessor to control air/fuel mixture that adapts at different elevations. I could not stand he idea of being in the woods wit my chainsaw and thinking is contains a computer. One more thing to fail that I can’t fix. I happen to find a new (in box) model without the microprocessor looking in the stockroom of business. The sales guy was apologizing for it not having the processor while I’m putting my arms around the box assuring I can buy it. That’s the same way I feel about all this complexity. No sense crying about it. It’s here, deal with it. But I am hearing some guys saying it’s not that big a deal .

Are they controlling the off road vehicles for emissions? It always comes out to the owners responsibility. On the Branson, it's pretty much a standalone system, almost like an add-on. If the warranty is voided? Maybe, but some dealers will still warranty the tractor. At least, those who did the "mod", asked the dealers about that and they said they would still do warranty work on the tractor.

It doesn't affect me personally as the European models didn't come with emissions system in the first place. Just a regular good ol'muffler. This is changing now. From 2020 and on, all new tractors have to come with emissions systems in Europe. We do have license plates on tractors though and it's a matter of time, till we have inspections on the tractors, to check things like ROPS, seat belts and so on.

But I had a 2009 VW Golf that had a lot of problems with the DPF/DOC. We ended up have to sell the thing. It wouldn't complete the regen process and every time we took it to the shop, was around $300, which is a lot in this country. In it's defense, it was the first generation of emissions systems. Now on a 2016 Mitsubishi Outlander, it has been flawless so far.

I follow Western truck and repair on Youtube. He is very talented and has lots of knowledge in pretty much everything with an engine. He constantly have to repair truck engines due to failures of the emissions systems, like EGR coolers, SCR dosing systems and so on. He even had to rebuilt an engine of a JD tractor with only 2000 hours on it. The thing ate itself due to a plugged DPF, if I recall correctly.

I also see a lot of people saying "it's not that bad". Well, it's not that bad, till it starts giving issues, right? These things a prone to have issues, so it's a matter of time till it happens.

My 2 year warranty, is long gone on mine but if I had the DOC on mine, would run it till it started giving me problems. Once that would happen, I would just take the thing off.

I do agree with you and question the same thing. Is this really that good for the environment? I mean, what's the point of having to run the tractor pretty much wide open all the time, burn more fuel, making more noise, creating extra unnecessary wear, just to keep the DPF/DOC happy? And in the end, it will still dump all the crap back out during regen. Yes it comes out in finer particles but it still bad regardless.

 

[beenthere]

bought a new Stihl chainsaw, MS-362.

Have had mine since 2014 and not a lick of trouble.. Even sat through this winter since last summer (unusual winter with no cutting), and started great with two pulls.. hope that continues on, but it adjusts to warm or cold for start and run..

CA wags EPA's tail and think they should bear the brunt of the criticism. The libs are running us into the ground, not withstanding the ethanol fiasco. Now the farmers depend on ethanol just to hold up the price of corn.. Seems one belch from a volcano in the world coughs up more pollution than any savings from our Gov'ts messing with our machines. 'nuff rant..

 

[jeff9366]

I do agree with you and question the same thing. Is this really that good for the environment? I mean, what's the point of having to run the tractor pretty much wide open all the time, burn more fuel, making more noise, creating extra unnecessary wear, just to keep the DPF/DOC happy? And in the end, it will still dump all the crap back out during regen. Yes it comes out in finer particles but it still bad regardless.

Tier IV compliant exhaust is impressively 99% cleaner than Tier III compliant exhaust.

Almost all Tier IV pollution reduction involves cleaner computer controlled fuel combustion within 'new' engines engineered to meet Tier IV standards.

A minuscule amount of nasty diesel residue, tar, exits the engine, then enters the DPF where residue condenses/accumulates on a ceramic matrix. Fine diesel particulates/soot/tar entering DPF is probably cancer causing, as is tar in tobacco smoke, but DPF tar is periodically incinerated at 1,100 degrees Farenheit, in a process called DPF regeneration. Incineration byproduct which exits DPF into the atmosphere is primarily carbon in the form of ash, weighing a few grams, relative to 30 gallons of fuel (+/-) burned during sixty engine hours of L3560 operation.

Parked DPF regeneration of my Kubota L3560 @ 2,200 rpm takes consistent sixteen minutes. Parked regeneration occurs every 60 engine hours/3,600 minutes in warm Florida. Do the math: 16/3,600 = ?

Those who run compact tractors harder than I, due to the nature of their applications, regularly have DPF temperature over 1,100 degrees Fahrenheit. During hot operation computer initiated DPF regeneration occurs as part of normal operation without operator intervention and without additional fuel consumption. At least in Kubota compact tractors.

 

[rademamj1]

Just a couple of comments here, the Tier4 diesels "idle" are no different than Tier2 or Tier3 machines. Meaning they don't leave the factory, preset with a higher idle just because of emissions equipment. It is the responsibility of the operator, to work his tractor at a rpm higher than he normally would.

For long time tractor owners, just purchasing a Tier4 machine, he will need to seriously adapt to doing everything at higher rpm than he is normally comfortable with. You hear horror stories of new tractors with just 100 hours, having a plugged DPF. These tractors were never operated at higher rpm, and the owners typically idle at 800rpm and work at 1200rpm. These owners never encourage a regen cycle, because they do not get the exhaust hot enough to burn out the DPF.

Well it also happens commonly in European auto diesels, where new diesel cars, just picked up from a dealer in two weeks get a plugged DPF....because the owners never got the exhaust hot enough to burn out the DPF. You get caught in London traffic, bumper to bumper every day, with your new diesel car, and your DPF will definitly be plugged after just two weeks.

So run the tractor diesel engines at high rpm, to encourage that burn out of the DPF, and that burn out process is also called the regen process.

Automatic Regen= DPF is 120% full. Tractor does a regen while you working the tractor, because you are continuously operating at high rpm.

Manual Regen= DPF is 160% full. Tractor notifies the operator (by lighting the regen button) to park the tractor, raise rpm and manually push the regen button. Typically takes 15mins to burn out the DPF.

Forced Regen= DPF is 200% full. Tractor goes into limp mode, the dreaded CEL light comes on, forcing the operator to do do a Manual regen.

Forced Manual Regen= DPF is 200% full. Tractor is unable to do any manual regen process, because operator was running in limp mode for so long, the diesel particulates are caked onto the ceramic filter screens. You must remove the DPF canister and either use a DPF cleaning service, who will bake the DPF canister at 1250 F for 8 hours. OR you can also do a power wash down of the Canister. YouTube is full of videos showing power wash downs.

It's best to simply stay in the automatic regeneration by simply running at higher rpm...to get the exhaust hot.

Forgot to mention, the DPF % fill is calculated by the computer, based on in incoming exhaust pressure versus the outgoing exhaust pressure at the DPF. The differential pressure across the DPF measures the blockage on the ceramic filter screens, also called percentage of DPF fill.

 

[rademamj1]

Kioti and Kubota and other tractor manufacturers document their DPF regen procedures in their owners manual, and typically they are all very similar as a procedure. So regardless if its a tractor, car or truck, DPF regen depends on hot exhaust burning to do the cleaning.