ANOTHER ELECTRICAL QUESTION

[grsthegreat]

This.
Make sure each circuit’s amperage is unique enough compared to the other circuit’s current to identify.
Hot wire and neutral wire of a circuit should have the same exact measured amperage (current).
...unless someone has connected neutrals from different circuits together downstream, or somebody bonded a (white) neutral and (green) ground wire together downstream (and the ground wire becomes a parallel “neutral” current path).

Not true. Ive seen operational circuits that have lower neutral current than line current. Loss as heat, whatever, from circuit.

 

[grsthegreat]

Another (easier) way to identify:
1. Make sure each circuit has a load plugged into it and turned “on”.
2. Turn off all breakers.
3. Disconnect 1 neutral wire in the panel.
4. Systematically turn breakers on/off until you measure 120v between the disconnected neutral wire and anything grounded (e.g. the panel, neutral bus, etc). The breaker you turned to get 120V on the neutral wire corresponds with that neutral wire.

This works because there is no current flowing in the circuit with the disconnected neutral, thus no voltage drop across the load, thus the whole “circuit”, including the disconnected neutral wire is at 120V.

as long as theres no Edison circuits this method would work best.

 

[CobyRupert]

Not true. Ive seen operational circuits that have lower neutral current than line current. Loss as heat, whatever, from circuit.

Current IN has to equal current OUT.
What you’re experiencing is current leaking to and using the ground, or finding another parallel path, back to the transformer winding from where it came.
GFCI breakers were made to protect people from these circuits.

 

[grsthegreat]

Current IN has to equal current OUT.
What you’re experiencing is current leaking to and using the ground, or finding another parallel path, back to the transformer winding from where it came.
GFCI breakers were made to protect people from these circuits.

I agree totally... but none the less i experienced it all the time. I guess as long as everything was off...... i did work in alot of old industrial and commercial work for sure.

 

[Industrial Toys]

Industrial is a a messy business. Shared neutrals all over the place and then there's that three phase 208 stuff! Domestic is almost always a nice neutral along with every circuit.

 

[grsthegreat]

Industrial is a a messy business. Shared neutrals all over the place and then there's that three phase 208 stuff! Domestic is almost always a nice neutral along with every circuit.

with cheap electricians using 14/3 and 12/3 edison circuits, one neutral is shared by 2 hots. Works great until you drop a neutral.....
Than its a mess. Wrecked tv’s, wrecked refers, and super nova lightbulbs...or simply blowing every led light in the circuits.

 

[MAX-24-Dean]

with cheap electricians using 14/3 and 12/3 edison circuits, one neutral is shared by 2 hots. Works great until you drop a neutral.....
Than its a mess. Wrecked tv痴, wrecked refers, and super nova lightbulbs...or simply blowing every led light in the circuits.

grsthegreat has it right. don't burn up appliances. unplug all 120 volt kitchen appliances before disconnecting neutrals and turning breakers back on in case it is a multi-wire circuit
(two 20 amp breakers sharing a neutral). you could burn up your appliances by applying 240 volts to them. Rare but I have seen it happen a couple of times.

 

[CobyRupert]

You can only get 240v with a lifted neutral if 2 breakers were turned on at once.

 

[aczlan]

You can only get 240v with a lifted neutral if 2 breakers were turned on at once.

If you are using a 12/3 or 14/3 with 2 circuits on different breakers, they should be on different poles.
Otherwise you could overload the neutral.


Aaron Z

 

[TBone]

Sorry, I have been under the weather for a few days and have not been able to appropriately respond to the suggestions. I apologize for not explaining my situation from the get go. I will try to remedy that now.

I live on the gulf coast so the threat of hurricanes and power outages is present much of the year. Outages can last from a few hours to several days. I have two Champion 3400 watt generators and would like to use them with a parallel kit to feed a 120/240 volt sub-panel. That panel will provide us with some lighting, satellite tv, run my refrigerator and freezer and a small window ac in my shop/living quarters. The only 240 volt appliances I have are a clothes dryer and central ac in the house. These I can live without for a few days if necessary. I plan to completely remove the wires feeding the sub-panel and even remove the outside breaker from the main panel so a mistake cannot be made and the power be mistakenly restored to the sub-panel. I realize that the two generators run in parallel DO NOT produce 240 volts, only two 120 volt feeds. The sub-panel I have contains 6 - 120volt breakers on each side. The MAX amp load on each side is about 14-16 amps according to my amp meter. Average load is much less than that so the 50 amp parallel feed should be more than enough. I know how to feed the sub-panel properly with the two 120 volt generator feeds but I'm not completely sure what to do with the neutral and ground wires coming from the generator. I understand that the generators have a floating neutral and my main panel has the neutral and ground bonded. So, do I hook up the ground and neutral wires coming from the generator to the sub-panel in their appropriate busses or will the ground connection cause a "ground loop" and present a problem. Sorry for the long post but I really need to know. Thanks.

 

[MossRoad]

Well, you opened the door to super duper criticism with that post.... :laughing:

I understand what you're trying to do, but really, why?

A 100 amp 240V transfer switch is less than $150.

Use something like that between your main and sub-panel, put the few circuits you want to power when power is out in the sub-panel (I think you already have them there), and hook an outlet for the generator(s) to plug into the transfer switch. Then you're safe and secure. :thumbsup:

As for paralleling two generators, while it can be done, why not sell them both and buy one that's big enough?

 

[LouNY]

Sorry, I have been under the weather for a few days and have not been able to appropriately respond to the suggestions. I apologize for not explaining my situation from the get go. I will try to remedy that now.

I live on the gulf coast so the threat of hurricanes and power outages is present much of the year. Outages can last from a few hours to several days. I have two Champion 3400 watt generators and would like to use them with a parallel kit to feed a 120/240 volt sub-panel. That panel will provide us with some lighting, satellite tv, run my refrigerator and freezer and a small window ac in my shop/living quarters. The only 240 volt appliances I have are a clothes dryer and central ac in the house. These I can live without for a few days if necessary. I plan to completely remove the wires feeding the sub-panel and even remove the outside breaker from the main panel so a mistake cannot be made and the power be mistakenly restored to the sub-panel. I realize that the two generators run in parallel DO NOT produce 240 volts, only two 120 volt feeds. The sub-panel I have contains 6 - 120volt breakers on each side. The MAX amp load on each side is about 14-16 amps according to my amp meter. Average load is much less than that so the 50 amp parallel feed should be more than enough. I know how to feed the sub-panel properly with the two 120 volt generator feeds but I'm not completely sure what to do with the neutral and ground wires coming from the generator. I understand that the generators have a floating neutral and my main panel has the neutral and ground bonded. So, do I hook up the ground and neutral wires coming from the generator to the sub-panel in their appropriate busses or will the ground connection cause a "ground loop" and present a problem. Sorry for the long post but I really need to know. Thanks.

I'm a bit confused you talk of paralleling generators,
then I'm hearing or think I'm hearing that each generator would go to an individual leg in the panel box.

So am I correct that you would remove any 240 2 pole breakers from the panel,
disconnect the incoming 240 volt feed from the panel box and then,
connect each generator to each separate hot leg in that panel box so that each leg has an independent 120 volt feed.
Each generator is capable of about 28 amps at 120 volts so almost 60 amps of 120 volt potential.
I have no clue what would happen as they are not really paralleled or synced together, might work might let out a bunch of expensive smoke.
I tend to believe that if all the grounds and neutrals are connected you could get by but it sure would be nerve wracking the first few times,
A larger generator would be much better,
if fuel conservation is an issue use a larger one when everything is up and going and drop to a single small one for low use periods.
Good luck

 

[TBone]

Well, you opened the door to super duper criticism with that post.... :laughing:

I understand what you're trying to do, but really, why?

A 100 amp 240V transfer switch is less than $150.

Use something like that between your main and sub-panel, put the few circuits you want to power when power is out in the sub-panel (I think you already have them there), and hook an outlet for the generator(s) to plug into the transfer switch. Then you're safe and secure. :thumbsup:

As for paralleling two generators, while it can be done, why not sell them both and buy one that's big enough?

A Champion parallel kit for these generators is $69.95. An inverter to replace both of them is around $1000. I have been unable to find a transfer switch for less than $150 (that is in in stock and available). If you know of one I would appreciate a link. Thanks.

 

[grsthegreat]

Sorry, I have been under the weather for a few days and have not been able to appropriately respond to the suggestions. I apologize for not explaining my situation from the get go. I will try to remedy that now.

I live on the gulf coast so the threat of hurricanes and power outages is present much of the year. Outages can last from a few hours to several days. I have two Champion 3400 watt generators and would like to use them with a parallel kit to feed a 120/240 volt sub-panel. That panel will provide us with some lighting, satellite tv, run my refrigerator and freezer and a small window ac in my shop/living quarters. The only 240 volt appliances I have are a clothes dryer and central ac in the house. These I can live without for a few days if necessary. I plan to completely remove the wires feeding the sub-panel and even remove the outside breaker from the main panel so a mistake cannot be made and the power be mistakenly restored to the sub-panel. I realize that the two generators run in parallel DO NOT produce 240 volts, only two 120 volt feeds. The sub-panel I have contains 6 - 120volt breakers on each side. The MAX amp load on each side is about 14-16 amps according to my amp meter. Average load is much less than that so the 50 amp parallel feed should be more than enough. I know how to feed the sub-panel properly with the two 120 volt generator feeds but I'm not completely sure what to do with the neutral and ground wires coming from the generator. I understand that the generators have a floating neutral and my main panel has the neutral and ground bonded. So, do I hook up the ground and neutral wires coming from the generator to the sub-panel in their appropriate busses or will the ground connection cause a "ground loop" and present a problem. Sorry for the long post but I really need to know. Thanks.

This is really a simple solution. It can’t legally be done. Period.

No electrician in his or her right mind would risk hooking up 2 - 120 volt systems into some kind of frankenstein transfer switch to operate a main panel. Buy a generator that has 240 available output and be done with it.

 

[TBone]

I'm a bit confused you talk of paralleling generators,
then I'm hearing or think I'm hearing that each generator would go to an individual leg in the panel box.

So am I correct that you would remove any 240 2 pole breakers from the panel,
disconnect the incoming 240 volt feed from the panel box and then,
connect each generator to each separate hot leg in that panel box so that each leg has an independent 120 volt feed.
Each generator is capable of about 28 amps at 120 volts so almost 60 amps of 120 volt potential.
I have no clue what would happen as they are not really paralleled or synced together, might work might let out a bunch of expensive smoke.
I tend to believe that if all the grounds and neutrals are connected you could get by but it sure would be nerve wracking the first few times,
A larger generator would be much better,
if fuel conservation is an issue use a larger one when everything is up and going and drop to a single small one for low use periods.
Good luck

If you will re-read my post you will see that there are NO 240V breakers in this panel, only 120V breakers. The parallel kit is specifically made for my Champion generators so I don't see there should be a problem there. As far as a larger generator, that is definitely an option. However I have these two practically new 3400 watt 120 volt generators that I would like to use. They are quiet, reliable and put out clean inverter power. A single new inverter generator that would provide the power that these do is around $1000. The 50 amps that my two generators would be more than enough to supply the panel. My only concern is the neutral and ground connections. Thanks for your reply.

 

[TBone]

LouNY:
I'm hearing that each generator would go to an individual leg in the panel box.

So am I correct that you would remove any 240 2 pole breakers from the panel,
disconnect the incoming 240 volt feed from the panel box and then,
connect each generator to each separate hot leg in that panel box so that each leg has an independent 120 volt feed.

You understand exactly except there are no 240v 2 pole breakers in the panel. All breakers are 120v single pole.

 

[Topzide]

The parnell kit only produces one 120 volt feed in higher amperage! Is doesn't make two 120 feeds. What you are trying to do is a fire waiting to happen! You need to sell and get a generator that will produce 240 volts and then go from there!

 

[TBone]

This is really a simple solution. It can’t legally be done. Period.

No electrician in his or her right mind would rusk hooking up 2 - 120 volt systems into dome kind of frankenstein transfer switch to operate a main panel. Buy a generator that has 240 available output and be done with it.

Trying to understand your poor spelling. I'm not "rusking" anything on a "dome" kind of frankenstein transfer switch. I'm not trying to operate a main panel. I am trying to supply power to a SUB panel. A 240 volt generator would be the same exact thing. Read, Study, Learn.

 

[grsthegreat]

Trying to understand your poor spelling. I'm not "rusking" anything on a "dome" kind of frankenstein transfer switch. I'm not trying to operate a main panel. I am trying to supply power to a SUB panel. A 240 volt generator would be the same exact thing. Read, Study, Learn.

Its not the same thing. You cannot legally supply each leg with a different separately derived device. Parallel generators double output but its for 120 only.. theres nothing to wake up and learn about. Ive been an electrical contractor for nearly 40 years. If you want to do this, than do it. Just don’t expect anyone to condone it or tell you its ok to do.. personally i am done with this, i am unsubscribing to it.

 

[TBone]

The parnell kit only produces one 120 volt feed in higher amperage! Is doesn't make two 120 feeds. What you are trying to do is a fire waiting to happen! You need to sell and get a generator that will produce 240 volts and then go from there!

You would be more believable if you could actually spell parallel. There are two 120v feeds coming out of the parallel switch, each carrying 120 volts and have a total of 50 amp capacity. If you will read and learn you will find that to be facts. Thanks for the fire warning. I will take that under advisement.