Submersible well pump health?

[fried1765]

Bring it on. I'm semi retired now and have a little more time to work on it.

Kinda depends on your particular situation.
We spend long periods away from our Florida home, and though I shut the electric power to the water heater off, I do not shut off the water supply to anything but the toilets.
Our spec house contractor water heater was 15 years old, and I was 75.
Neighbor water heaters were all failing.
I decided it was time to be proactive.

 

[Valveman]

Sure I make and sell Cycle Stop Valves. But I started with VFD's over 30 years ago. VFD's are made for the installer and manufacturer to make a lot of money with, not to last a long time for the customer. There is no way you have seen increased life on motors using VFD's, because no motor has ever lasted 30 years on a VFD. VFD's are specifically designed to be expensive, not last very long, and to shorten the life of pumps and motors. VFD's are planned obsolescence at its finest. My opinion is certainly jaded as I have thousands of customers who switched out an expensive and problematic VFD for a Cycle Stop Valve and write me to say how much better the CSV works than the VFD. Read the reviews of people who have CSV's or you will fall for the hype of the VFD and be stuck with a Tar Baby that needs repairing and/or replacing often. Pump guys love VFD's because they make so much more money with them. But just think about where all that money comes from?

 

[grsthegreat]

Really, then i guess our associations well using VFD , all installed over 27 years ago and still working must be a fluke. Im not sure why you think slowly ramping up a motor is a bad thing.

 

[Valveman]

Slowly ramping up a submersible motor is a bad thing. The Kingsbury thrust bearing needs at least 50% speed to have the film of water needed for lubrication between the pads and plate. Slowing ramping up the speed drags off the thrust bearing pads as they have no lubrication until it is up to 50% speed. I would really like to see a picture of a 27 year old VFD or drive that has not been repaired, replaced, or burned up a pump or motor in all that time, as that would be very unusual. Those older drives didn't even have dvdt filters or anything on them, so they were very hard on the motors. Usually they tell me the drive is still working, even though it and/or the pump/motor has been replaced several times over the years.

Pump manufacturers would not be pushing VFD's so hard if they really made pumps last longer. That is the opposite of a good thing for a company who makes money from pumps. I didn't come up with this on my own. I was told by several retired engineers for several of the major pump companies that CSV's make pumps last longer and VFD's make more money for the factory, which is why they don't like CSV's and spend millions advertising VFD's.

I can show you pictures of pumps systems I installed with VFD's from 89 to 92. None of them lasted more than 5-10 years, and most only 2-3 years. A VFD system that hasn't been touched in 27 years is very unusual, not the norm. Although those older and larger VFD's like would be used on an "association well" would have had three power packs instead of just one like the newer, smaller, and even shorter lived VFD's that they are producing today.

The smaller home sized VFD's are made to last even less time than the larger industrial versions. Pump, motor, and VFD manufacturing is driven completely by profit, which is exactly the opposite of what is best for the consumer. Anything they can spend that much money advertising is because it is costing the consumer that much more than it should.

 

[Al 2]

I put a rebuilt Jacuzzi pump 300 feet down 40 years ago and it's still going strong.

 

[Valveman]

I put a rebuilt Jacuzzi pump 300 feet down 40 years ago and it's still going strong.

Jacuzzi was a good pump. Franklin bought them out and has "redesigned" everything to make it last an average of only 7 years. Pumps are no longer made to last, but rather to make more profit for the manufacturers. The only way to get the most out of any new pump is to limit the cycling and not use a VFD.

 

[ultrarunner]

Jacuzzi almost joined the family back in my brothers dating days... her family said when your name is synonymous with the product it has to be good.

As a teen a neighbor was putting in a well and as the pump was being put together I questioned the use of a galvanized pipe nipple with all the brass/bronze...

Was told "Kid, it will out live me."

He was right 7 years later he was gone...

When his son was troubleshooting I mentioned the galvanized pipe nipple and sure enough that is what failed.

 

[tomplum]

Jacuzzi was a good pump. Franklin bought them out and has "redesigned" everything to make it last an average of only 7 years. Pumps are no longer made to last, but rather to make more profit for the manufacturers. The only way to get the most out of any new pump is to limit the cycling and not use a VFD.

So I believe I'll getting one of your valves when the new pump house actually gets built and plumbed for the final time. Are there situations that it doesn't make sense to do so? I was looking on the web for reviews and thoughts on them and ran across a guy who thought the valve created back pressure on the pump and pipes. Is this correct or no?

 

[mikester]

22 years on mine. I did have to replace the motor starter about 10 years ago. Cynically speaking the old pump might be better quality than the new ones. I will replace mine when it stops working not before. From past experience these things fail in the dead of winter at -30oC in a snow storm, while I'm in the shower.

 

[Valveman]

So I believe I'll getting one of your valves when the new pump house actually gets built and plumbed for the final time. Are there situations that it doesn't make sense to do so? I was looking on the web for reviews and thoughts on them and ran across a guy who thought the valve created back pressure on the pump and pipes. Is this correct or no?

Yes the CSV creates back pressure to make the pump think it is in a deeper well so it pumps less water when you need it to. Contrary to what most people think, back pressure is good for a pump. Back pressure makes the motor draw lower amps and run cooler. Back pressure is how the CSV keeps the pump from cycling on and off, which is really a good thing. Pumps are designed to create pressure, that is just what they do. They need a certain amount of back pressure to keep the impellers from upthrusting. Too little back pressure causes upthrust and is bad for the pump. No pump can build more back pressure than it can stand. Look at the pump curve. The curve shows the pump working with enough back pressure to get it to zero flow. Even zero flow won't hurt a pump for a short time. However, at zero flow the pump will get hot in a few minutes, which isn't good. But the CSV can never completely close and the pump never gets to zero flow. The CSV only closes down to a minimum of 1 GPM, because it takes about 2/10's of a GPM to keep the pump/motor cool. So, the CSV allows five times more than 2/10's of a GPM to make sure the pump stays cool.

It is also rare for a pump to build more pressure than the pipe can handle. However, this is one of the things we check when sizing a CSV. We will look at the maximum pressure your pump can build, and make sure your pipe is rated to handle it. Back pressure from the average size submersible pump is between 100 and 150 PSI, and most pipe is rated for 160 PSI or more.

The take away from all of this is anyone who thinks back pressure is hard on a pump, doesn't have a clue how pumps work. As with a lot of other things in life, people who are completely wrong about what they believe usually show their ignorance by having the loudest mouth in the bunch. :hissyfit: