Submersible well pump health?

[the old grind]

So I believe I'll getting one of your valves when the new pump house actually gets built and plumbed for the final time. Are there situations that it doesn't make sense to do so? I was looking on the web for reviews and thoughts on them and ran across a guy who thought the valve created back pressure on the pump and pipes. Is this correct or no?

There are users like myself who are thrifty with water use, and as Valveman says there are situations where little to nothing is gained by installing a CSV. My 3/4 hp shallow well pump with '20 gal equivalent' bladder tank cycles 3-4 times/day, and I'm an example of minimal benefit. It's 7:00 PM here now and my pump has been off since my shower this morning. (I can hear it from upstairs) I might get one cycle when doing dishes once or twice/week, and a load in the washer is usually just two cycles. And yes, 'going off the porch' is very routine for me vs flushing the jar.

... I'd like to think a well company would look at my well if it was his own.

Guys like that are rare, but out there. We have a company of skilled workmen in our area whose services are outstanding and whose work is freely explained to customers with technical or engineering background. I met them 25 yrs ago*, and had them come out last Summer to check a pump for me on another property, expecting it to need pulled and/or replaced.

Two guys showed up, tested flow and amp draw, then talked me out of doing more while explaining why. (Oh, I grilled them.) They were there for two hours and charged me $75 for driving a rig, replacement pumps, and supplies if needed across the county for the call.

*B Taylor & Co put in a 1hp two wire submersible on poly for a friend. IIRC the well was 180' and the pump set ~140' and ground water at ~60'. Glenn added a hydrant by the pump and ran three 'chic-chic-chic-da-da-da' sprinklers on 50' 3/4" hoses at once on it for decades to water lawn and his "asparagris". The pump outlived him and still runs. Note that we're retired and don't use as much water as we age.

Question for those who know: Was using wire a gauge smaller than I would have installed to blow like a fuse if lightning struck? How about for providing a soft start? Hard to argue with longevity. The last pump I helped pull just down the road had shattered vanes. We replaced it with ~what what was there because we didn't know how/whether to reassess or change what Marty had. Well & pump were 15 years old, and Taylor didn't install 'em.

 

[Egon]

I think most people in the service industries are knowledgeable and reliable. Enough of this foolishness “ only I know what’s right” !

 

[MF RED in MT]

There are users like myself who are thrifty with water use, and as Valveman says there are situations where little to nothing is gained by installing a CSV. My 3/4 hp shallow well pump with '20 gal equivalent' bladder tank cycles 3-4 times/day, and I'm an example of minimal benefit. It's 7:00 PM here now and my pump has been off since my shower this morning. (I can hear it from upstairs) I might get one cycle when doing dishes once or twice/week, and a load in the washer is usually just two cycles. And yes, 'going off the porch' is very routine for me vs flushing the jar.

I second that, hmm, really only #1 off of any of my 3/4 wrap around covered decking surrounding the house.

This is what I call saving some more life on my 27 year old, 135' submersible pump which only cycles 1 to 2 times a day for 70 seconds each.

I believe it also keeps the bears at a further distance until the late fall.

And I also self water most of my trees...

KC

 

[lilranch2001]

An ex girlfriend got mad at me for watering tree, when I have perfectly good bathrooms........

Maybe thats why she is the ex!

 

[dalola]

I'm in a similar spot....my pump is still going strong at 29 yrs. New pressure tank about 5 yrs ago, that's it. ~125 foot well, never any issues.

I thought about just preemptively replacing it on my time, but continue to ride it out. I suspect it will just suddenly stop working at some point, vs some warning signs, I dunno...

Did the same thing with the original HVAC system this spring, but it had a few more issues over the last few years, so went ahead and replaced it.

Guess I'll reassess in the spring.... if it makes it that long...:laughing:

 

[fried1765]

I'm in a similar spot....my pump is still going strong at 29 yrs. New pressure tank about 5 yrs ago, that's it. ~125 foot well, never any issues.

I thought about just preemptively replacing it on my time, but continue to ride it out. I suspect it will just suddenly stop working at some point, vs some warning signs, I dunno...

Did the same thing with the original HVAC system this spring, but it had a few more issues over the last few years, so went ahead and replaced it.

Guess I'll reassess in the spring.... if it makes it that long...:laughing:

If you can do the replacement yourself, and on your own schedule, it certainly makes sense to do it, rather than waiting until it becomes an emergency. (the evening before Thanksgiving, Xmas, Easter, etc.)

 

[MF RED in MT]

I'm in a similar spot....my pump is still going strong at 29 yrs. New pressure tank about 5 yrs ago, that's it. ~125 foot well, never any issues.

I thought about just preemptively replacing it on my time, but continue to ride it out. I suspect it will just suddenly stop working at some point, vs some warning signs, I dunno...

Did the same thing with the original HVAC system this spring, but it had a few more issues over the last few years, so went ahead and replaced it.

Guess I'll reassess in the spring.... if it makes it that long...:laughing:

Did the same last year, replaced pressure tank (40gal to 55gal) and all piping/pressure switch/etc, and hot water tank.

About the pump, I'm inclined to wait it out until it gives indication of an issue, or without notice just quits, because of the quality of the new pumps to replace the old pump.

KC

 

[Valveman]

There are users like myself who are thrifty with water use, and as Valveman says there are situations where little to nothing is gained by installing a CSV. My 3/4 hp shallow well pump with '20 gal equivalent' bladder tank cycles 3-4 times/day, and I'm an example of minimal benefit. It's 7:00 PM here now and my pump has been off since my shower this morning. (I can hear it from upstairs) I might get one cycle when doing dishes once or twice/week, and a load in the washer is usually just two cycles. And yes, 'going off the porch' is very routine for me vs flushing the jar.

A 20 gallon size pressure tank only holds 5 gallons of water. Although there are situations where a CSV is not as useful, there are always benefits to having a CSV. In your case the pump probably cycles on/off four to six times when taking a 20-30 gallon shower while the pressure goes up to 60 and back down to 40 over and over. Even with a smaller tank the CSV would just keep the pressure at a strong and constant 50 PSI for as long as you are in the shower. Then the same as with any pressure tank system, the pump would stay off until you used water again. On heavily used systems the CSV can save a lot of cycles. For lightly used systems like for the house only, the CSV and small tank will cycle the pump the same number of times or less than your 20 gallon tank system. The difference is your tank only system cycles the pump on and off while using water like for showers, and the CSV keeps the pump running continuously. The cycles that happen for short term uses of water do not add up to the cycles the CSV eliminates during the long term uses of water. There are also lots of benefits to the mechanical soft start and soft stop created by a CSV.

Guys like that are rare, but out there. We have a company of skilled workmen in our area whose services are outstanding and whose work is freely explained to customers with technical or engineering background. I met them 25 yrs ago*, and had them come out last Summer to check a pump for me on another property, expecting it to need pulled and/or replaced.

Two guys showed up, tested flow and amp draw, then talked me out of doing more while explaining why. (Oh, I grilled them.) They were there for two hours and charged me $75 for driving a rig, replacement pumps, and supplies if needed across the county for the call.

*B Taylor & Co put in a 1hp two wire submersible on poly for a friend. IIRC the well was 180' and the pump set ~140' and ground water at ~60'. Glenn added a hydrant by the pump and ran three 'chic-chic-chic-da-da-da' sprinklers on 50' 3/4" hoses at once on it for decades to water lawn and his "asparagris". The pump outlived him and still runs. Note that we're retired and don't use as much water as we age.

Yes there are a few good installers still out there. But 25 years since you had them out means the old man may no longer be around. Hopefully the kids were paying attention and don't ruin the business by trying new stuff that gives them a bad reputation?

Question for those who know: Was using wire a gauge smaller than I would have installed to blow like a fuse if lightning struck? How about for providing a soft start? Hard to argue with longevity. The last pump I helped pull just down the road had shattered vanes. We replaced it with ~what what was there because we didn't know how/whether to reassess or change what Marty had. Well & pump were 15 years old, and Taylor didn't install 'em.

The longest length of the smallest wire possible for the horsepower pump you have makes a reduced voltage soft starter. The small wire gives a 36% reduction in torque and 20% reduction in amperage. It doesn't really work like a fuse to protect from lightning, but doesn't hurt either.

 

[Valveman]

I think most people in the service industries are knowledgeable and reliable. Enough of this foolishness “ only I know what’s right” !

I disagree! I have been teaching classes to thousands of pump installers and engineers in this country and others for almost 30 years now. I have found that 95% of the installers and engineers really don't know much about what they are doing. Pumps are counter intuitive, which really messes with engineers and installers, as they think everything in the world is intuitive. Pumps don't like to rest and running 24/7/365 is good for them. Back pressure is also good for pumps. A soft start or ramping up the speed slowly is not good for a submersible motor. These things and many others are counter intuitive, which is why pump installers and engineers with closed minds will never understand. The 5% who understand these counter intuitive principles laugh at the hard headedness of their colleges.

Even though I have studied pumps and electronics for 50 years, I still learn something new occasionally. I would never claim to know it all. However, 95% of pump installers think they know all there is to know, which is a sure indication that they do not. The 5% who are humble, quite, and are not afraid to say "I don't know but I will find out" are the intelligent ones. Don't take my word or any installer or engineers word for it. Do the research. Be careful to weed out the hype and advertisements from the facts. Read reviews, ask for references, and make up your own mind which way is best. Again, no one should care more about your water than you.

 

[Valveman]

I'm in a similar spot....my pump is still going strong at 29 yrs. New pressure tank about 5 yrs ago, that's it. ~125 foot well, never any issues.

I thought about just preemptively replacing it on my time, but continue to ride it out. I suspect it will just suddenly stop working at some point, vs some warning signs, I dunno...

Did the same thing with the original HVAC system this spring, but it had a few more issues over the last few years, so went ahead and replaced it.

Guess I'll reassess in the spring.... if it makes it that long...:laughing:

Pumps don't usually give much indication that they are going out. You have good water one day and nothing the next. Your 29 year old pump might not last another day, and you might get another 29 years out of it. It was also made when pumps where better, as a new one won't last as long as that one.

A lot people have lightly used water systems that last a long time. But that doesn't mean they can't benefit from other technology like the Cycle Stop Valve. Many water systems are heavily used, like for drip or sprinkler irrigation, multiple water troughs with float valves, heat pumps, multiple houses, or just a house full of teenage girls. These are the type where a pump control system really gets tested. You may not have water hammer, cycling, low pressure, or short lived pumps like many of the higher use systems do, but you can benefit from their knowledge anyway. If something like the CSV can solve all these problems in systems with heavy use, they will make lightly used systems work better as well.