HVAC and Ionizer advice needed

[EddieWalker]

Just over 2 years ago we had a new Amana 3 ton, 16 Seer HVAC system installed. Since then, the coils have become plugged up from very fine dog hair and dust. The coils are in an upside down V shape and I'm able to get under them and clean off some of the hair with a wire brush so air flows through them again, but they are still very dirty. The solution is to remove the coils and clean them , then install them again and put refrigerant back into the system. Estimate is 4 hours labor at $90 an hour, plus refrigerant. If it's less time, he said they would charge us less. This is supposed to happen March.

We have 5 Akitas and 3 extra large doggy doors for them to come and go when they want. They have a one acre yard to run around it, and they like to play rough with each other, which means a lot of dust comes into the house constantly. They also shed a lot of hair. We have two Roomba's that run every day, plus my wife is a clean freak that is constantly cleaning. With Covid, she mostly works from home and is able to keep the house as clean as possible.

Because of the dogs, I change the air filter twice a month. It's always dirty, and it's always bowed up at the sides. The AC guy said that when the filter bows up, it's allowing the dust and dog hair to get to the coils.

To make sure it doesn't happen again, the HVAC guy showed me how to convert my one inch filter to a 2 inch filter. I found a six pack of 13 MER filters for $60 on Amazon, so that's not too bad. They are 20x20x2 and they should remain solid in place without bending up. I did this Saturday and will check on it next weekend to see how well they do. I expect to change them twice a month like before.

If all that makes sense, then this is my question. He suggested that we ad an ionizer to the system. He said that it plugs in by the fan and it charges the air so it clumps up the dust and hair in the house, and then the filter will catch more of it, which will keep the coils clean. His estimate for labor and materials is $567.75

I think that they have a significant mark up on materials and I'm wondering if this is something that I need? Does it work like he says it will? and most importantly, is this something that I can do myself if I can find an ionizer for a better price? From what he said, it's a quick, easy job to wire it up and attach it to the inside wall of the unit. It's a mounted to a magnet, but he will screw it to the wall to make it more secure.

When they told me that I should add a surge protector, they wanted $300 to do it, and they told me the make and model that they will use. I found it on Amazon for $50 and installed it myself. If they want $567 to do this, I'm wondering if I can find it for a lot less and save a couple hundred bucks? or do I even need an ionizer?

And my other question is can I just buy an ionizer for inside the house that plugs into an outlet and does not have anything to do with going inside of the HVAC unit? Would that accomplish the same thing? Would I save money doing it this way?

My last question is what to buy? Do you have one, does it work? where did you get it?

Thank you,
Eddie

 

[MossRoad]

First, don't use a wire brush. They make brushes specifically for coils that won't damage them, like this:

TOUGH GUY Condenser Brush, Polyester, Brush Length '('In.')' 2 1'/'8 in, Handle Type Plastic, Handle Color White - 3HHE8'|'3HHE8 - Grainger

Second, have you tried using spray-on coil cleaner? They make several types. One requires rinsing. One is no-rinse. I use the no-rinse in my house. We have indoor cats, so lots of cat hair. It dissolves most dirt, dust and grease after you brush off the pet hair and vacuum it out.

It comes in aerosol cans, or, you can buy it on bulk gallons and mix it up in a pump sprayer.

We had an electrostatic air filter on our furnace (still do, but disconnected). It worked just O.K. It just had what looked like window screens in front of it to trap large particles like dust bunnies and pet fur. The device itself has wires and plates. Anything coming through it would get zapped and stick to the plates. Once a month you have to pull the two plates sections out and you can either rinse and brush them clean, or put them in the dishwasher.

The ZAPPING would get annoying, and would signal it was time to clean it. Kinda like having a bug zapper in your ducts.

Anyhow, if you haven't tried a brush, vacuum and coils spray first, I'd go that route.

You could also go with double filters. Put some lower-rated filters in front of your high-rated filters. The lowers will be sacrificial and the higher will last a very long time.

 

[Sigarms]

Just over 2 years ago we had a new Amana 3 ton, 16 Seer HVAC system installed. Since then, the coils have become plugged up from very fine dog hair and dust. The coils are in an upside down V shape and I'm able to get under them and clean off some of the hair with a wire brush so air flows through them again, but they are still very dirty. The solution is to remove the coils and clean them , then install them again and put refrigerant back into the system. Estimate is 4 hours labor at $90 an hour, plus refrigerant. If it's less time, he said they would charge us less. This is supposed to happen March.

We have 5 Akitas and 3 extra large doggy doors for them to come and go when they want. They have a one acre yard to run around it, and they like to play rough with each other, which means a lot of dust comes into the house constantly. They also shed a lot of hair. We have two Roomba's that run every day, plus my wife is a clean freak that is constantly cleaning. With Covid, she mostly works from home and is able to keep the house as clean as possible.

Because of the dogs, I change the air filter twice a month. It's always dirty, and it's always bowed up at the sides. The AC guy said that when the filter bows up, it's allowing the dust and dog hair to get to the coils.

To make sure it doesn't happen again, the HVAC guy showed me how to convert my one inch filter to a 2 inch filter. I found a six pack of 13 MER filters for $60 on Amazon, so that's not too bad. They are 20x20x2 and they should remain solid in place without bending up. I did this Saturday and will check on it next weekend to see how well they do. I expect to change them twice a month like before.

If all that makes sense, then this is my question. He suggested that we ad an ionizer to the system. He said that it plugs in by the fan and it charges the air so it clumps up the dust and hair in the house, and then the filter will catch more of it, which will keep the coils clean. His estimate for labor and materials is $567.75

I think that they have a significant mark up on materials and I'm wondering if this is something that I need? Does it work like he says it will? and most importantly, is this something that I can do myself if I can find an ionizer for a better price? From what he said, it's a quick, easy job to wire it up and attach it to the inside wall of the unit. It's a mounted to a magnet, but he will screw it to the wall to make it more secure.

When they told me that I should add a surge protector, they wanted $300 to do it, and they told me the make and model that they will use. I found it on Amazon for $50 and installed it myself. If they want $567 to do this, I'm wondering if I can find it for a lot less and save a couple hundred bucks? or do I even need an ionizer?

And my other question is can I just buy an ionizer for inside the house that plugs into an outlet and does not have anything to do with going inside of the HVAC unit? Would that accomplish the same thing? Would I save money doing it this way?

My last question is what to buy? Do you have one, does it work? where did you get it?

Thank you,
Eddie

For a lot of animals in the house, I'd go with a MERV10 4" air cleaner, such as a Honeywell F100. A 20"x20" 4" MERV10 has more surface area than a 20"x20" 2 air filter. Thing is, you probably would need to do some duct modifications to install the cabinet (which holds th filter) in the duct.

For your current 2" MERV13 filter, my only concearn would be if you were using a 1" poly or fiberglass air filter in the past (say a MERV8 or MERV10 rating) and now going to a MERV 13, I'd just check the static pressure of your duct. MERV13 offers more resistance to airflow, and depending on what your static pressure was before going to the MERV13, you could possibly end up hurting your HVAC system over the long haul with a higher MERV rating (higher rate of blower motor burnout over time being the prime victim).

No idea on what a ionizer would do for dogs as I've never followed up with anyone where one was installed, but they do help immensely with other indoor air qality issues. I wouldn't waste my time with a stand alone unit for one room.

I will agree about the price your HVAC guy gave you on the surge protector, but if the sub $600 price was for an install on a iWaveR, REME HELO or Dust Free IAQ ionizer, that's a GREAT price. The reality is a decent duct ionizer costs at least 10 time more than a surge protector.

 

[jaxs]

Expanding on what Moss said,which is good advice. The special coil brushes work ok but I've found large ROUND hairbrushes do just as well and I mostly use wire brushes. The key is don't scrub,wipe with a rolling motion as brush move's along fins.. You must pull brush out and remove lint after only a few inches of coil. Once that is complete,shining a light through coil will tell you if and how much is lodged between fins. If light only passes 50% or less space between fins,next step depends on conditions. If there's room enough,I have a 6"x6"x2" plastic cup for shop vac (a reducer is used to step down hose size). Cup is placed against coil,prefiablly intake side. I have a clear plastic sleeve in hose that alow's me to see what is going through hose. Some time alot can be extracted,some times very little,depending on how well lint is adheared to fins. Coil is vacuumed again,but this time a solution of water and "NO RINSE" coil cleaner is sprayed from oppisite side as vac hood move's accross coil. Make certain condensate pan and drains are clean because dirt will wash off coils to increase chances of blockage for a few days.
Dog hair doesn't need ionization to assist filtering. If you want ionization,use a stand alone unit in bedrooms. Merv 13 is 5 steps above 8 I use in normal conditions. High Merv can offer relief for serious respitory issues and certainly doesn't harm healthy people but I only use high Merv for special situations. Moss's suggestion for primary filteration would be highly reccomended for your situation.
MERV 6 removes lint, household dust, and pollen. MERV 8 removes those plus dust mites and mold spores. MERV 11 pet dander, smoke, and smog. MERV 13 will also remove bacteria and virus carriers.
If you choose above 8,I highly reccomend increasing filter size. That can be accomplished several ways including 2 filters in a vee like your coil. I have fashioned many "hammocks" from 2x2 or 1x1 welded wire and covered with spun polyester available in cut to fit rolls from Home Depot Supply Catalog. For price comparison with Amazon,ask Home Depot customer service or Pro desk about case lots from "Home Depot Supply Catalog". Properly filtered,coils will never require cleaning for life of unit. Proper filteration increase's unit life,reduce's energy consumption,make's air healthier and reduce's house cleaning chores. Hope you find this helpful,it came from 40 years experience in hvac.

 

[Sigarms]

We had an electrostatic air filter on our furnace (still do, but disconnected). It worked just O.K. It just had what looked like window screens in front of it to trap large particles like dust bunnies and pet fur. The device itself has wires and plates. Anything coming through it would get zapped and stick to the plates. Once a month you have to pull the two plates sections out and you can either rinse and brush them clean, or put them in the dishwasher.

The ZAPPING would get annoying, and would signal it was time to clean it. Kinda like having a bug zapper in your ducts.

Electronic air cleaners were big in the 90's and perhaps early 2000's, but don't think I've seen one sold in the last 15 years. No zapping noise with the duct mounted air cleaners / ionizers, added they are about the same cost as a EAC, but from what science tells us, are more effective with less strain on the static pressure.

 

[MossRoad]

Electronic air cleaners were big in the 90's and perhaps early 2000's, but don't think I've seen one sold in the last 15 years. No zapping noise with the duct mounted air cleaners / ionizers, added they are about the same cost as a EAC, but from what science tells us, are more effective with less strain on the static pressure.

It came with the house when we bought it around 95-96. Honeywell, I believe. It died about 10 years ago. Someday I'm just gonna gut it and put in "normal" filters. For now, I just wash the screens often. We don't have a big dust problem yet, but the kittens are now 2 years old, and pet dander is starting to show up again.

Speaking of pet dander, I believe that is the largest source of "dust" in a house with cats and dogs. I came to this unscientific conclusion this way:

When you sit in a sunny room and slap your couch, and you see dust fly up into the rays of sun.

The cat died and we had no cat for 6 months. We continued our 2x weekly vacuuming as normal.

After just a few weeks, the house was noticeably less dusty. After a couple months, if you'd slap the couch on a sunny day, you'd hardly get a spec of dust into the rays of sunshine.

From that, I concluded the cat was the culprit.

We got a couple kittens after 6 months, and even then, there was no dust until the cats became adults. Then the dust started to return.

It's pet dander, folks.

But they're so cute! :laughing:

 

[Sigarms]

It came with the house when we bought it around 95-96. Honeywell, I believe. It died about 10 years ago. Someday I'm just gonna gut it and put in "normal" filters. For now, I just wash the screens often. We don't have a big dust problem yet, but the kittens are now 2 years old, and pet dander is starting to show up again.

Convert Electronic Air Cleaner to Accept Media Filters. FiltersUSA

 

[MossRoad]

Convert Electronic Air Cleaner to Accept Media Filters. FiltersUSA

Yep, I saw that earlier. That's my plan. :thumbsup:

 

[ponytug]

It came with the house when we bought it around 95-96. Honeywell, I believe. It died about 10 years ago. Someday I'm just gonna gut it and put in "normal" filters. For now, I just wash the screens often. We don't have a big dust problem yet, but the kittens are now 2 years old, and pet dander is starting to show up again.

Speaking of pet dander, I believe that is the largest source of "dust" in a house with cats and dogs. I came to this unscientific conclusion this way:

When you sit in a sunny room and slap your couch, and you see dust fly up into the rays of sun.

The cat died and we had no cat for 6 months. We continued our 2x weekly vacuuming as normal.

After just a few weeks, the house was noticeably less dusty. After a couple months, if you'd slap the couch on a sunny day, you'd hardly get a spec of dust into the rays of sunshine.

From that, I concluded the cat was the culprit.

We got a couple kittens after 6 months, and even then, there was no dust until the cats became adults. Then the dust started to return.

It's pet dander, folks.

But they're so cute! :laughing:

Yup. Pet dander. We have large german shepherds, who are active outside on the ranch, cattle herding, and general protection work (think feral pigs). They come inside at night.

We have a Honeywell electronic air cleaner as well. One of the twin 20x20 cell units. It came with house, previously owned by a HVAC system installer.

For years, I was unimpressed with the performance. Yes, we vacuum up the dog hair regularly, but there was always a film of dust accumulating. After a recent lightning storm (not pointing fingers), the dust started really accumulating. Eventually, I thought to look at the air cleaner, and noticed it's magic neon light was out. I pulled out the electronics (easy job), but couldn't see an obviously blown component, but I ordered a new power supply. It is an updated design, but a drop in replacement. Fifteen minutes after I received the power supply, it was running again. I noticed that in the new one, the magic neon light didn't flicker, and took a second look at the old one and found a bad cold solder joint on a ceramic item that obviously had been arcing for some time, and was I suspect the reason why it never worked well.

The new new unit works great. There is almost no dust in the house now. It also works way, way better on smoke than the old one ever did.

I bought the power supply from Bel-Aire electronic air cleaners. I found them very easy to work with and they have lots of information on their website.

FWIW: We switched to a different dog hair brush recently; it has substantially reduced the little drifts of dog hair around the house. Our dog is a ranch dog that comes in and out, so all sorts of things come in with her. But you have to be up for brushing your dog regularly.

We recently had the AC/furnace inspected with no issues on the coils. All clean.

All the best,

Peter

 

[jaxs]

Having seen many systems with Electro-"something or other" filters,I haven't been impressed by any of them. There are special applications such as clean rooms and labs that benifit from the technology used in conjunction with high effeciency filtering but non where used as primary means of filteration. The trure test of a filter is whether dust or lint is visiable in ductwork downstream. IMO it's only a buzz phrase to sale high profit add on to new hvac installs. I look foward to Runner weighing in on this subject. The invoroment he work's with lend's it self but I'm not sure he is involved with that.

 

[EddieWalker]

For a lot of animals in the house, I'd go with a MERV10 4" air cleaner, such as a Honeywell F100. A 20"x20" 4" MERV10 has more surface area than a 20"x20" 2 air filter. Thing is, you probably would need to do some duct modifications to install the cabinet (which holds th filter) in the duct.

For your current 2" MERV13 filter, my only concearn would be if you were using a 1" poly or fiberglass air filter in the past (say a MERV8 or MERV10 rating) and now going to a MERV 13, I'd just check the static pressure of your duct. MERV13 offers more resistance to airflow, and depending on what your static pressure was before going to the MERV13, you could possibly end up hurting your HVAC system over the long haul with a higher MERV rating (higher rate of blower motor burnout over time being the prime victim).

No idea on what a ionizer would do for dogs as I've never followed up with anyone where one was installed, but they do help immensely with other indoor air qality issues. I wouldn't waste my time with a stand alone unit for one room.

I will agree about the price your HVAC guy gave you on the surge protector, but if the sub $600 price was for an install on a iWaveR, REME HELO or Dust Free IAQ ionizer, that's a GREAT price. The reality is a decent duct ionizer costs at least 10 time more than a surge protector.

Thanks for this info. I went with MERV13 because of a chart that showed it catching more stuff then the lower numbers. I never thought about air flow. I'll try a MERV10 the next time I need filters, or do you think I should order then now?

I didn't understand if you think the ionizer works at reducing what is getting on my coils, or if the bigger filter will do the job instead? My thinking is to do a better job of cleaning the coil like you guys are suggesting, and seeing what the 2 inch filter does.

 

[EddieWalker]

First, don't use a wire brush. They make brushes specifically for coils that won't damage them, like this:

TOUGH GUY Condenser Brush, Polyester, Brush Length '('In.')' 2 1'/'8 in, Handle Type Plastic, Handle Color White - 3HHE8'|'3HHE8 - Grainger

Second, have you tried using spray-on coil cleaner? They make several types. One requires rinsing. One is no-rinse. I use the no-rinse in my house. We have indoor cats, so lots of cat hair. It dissolves most dirt, dust and grease after you brush off the pet hair and vacuum it out.

It comes in aerosol cans, or, you can buy it on bulk gallons and mix it up in a pump sprayer.

We had an electrostatic air filter on our furnace (still do, but disconnected). It worked just O.K. It just had what looked like window screens in front of it to trap large particles like dust bunnies and pet fur. The device itself has wires and plates. Anything coming through it would get zapped and stick to the plates. Once a month you have to pull the two plates sections out and you can either rinse and brush them clean, or put them in the dishwasher.

The ZAPPING would get annoying, and would signal it was time to clean it. Kinda like having a bug zapper in your ducts.

Anyhow, if you haven't tried a brush, vacuum and coils spray first, I'd go that route.

You could also go with double filters. Put some lower-rated filters in front of your high-rated filters. The lowers will be sacrificial and the higher will last a very long time.

I have a nylon parts cleaner brush that I tried using at first, but it didn't accomplish anything. I went to the wire brush because that's what the HVAC guy suggested. I just dragged it along the direction of the fins and pulled out as much hair as it could, then cleaned it out and did it again. This took awhile, but I went from not being able to see through the fins, and then being able to see the coils clearly. They are dirty, and the fins are dirty, but air can flow through them now.

I tried a type of radiator cleaner stuff on my tractor that didn't seem to do anything, so I didn't try anything on my AC coils. Is there a brand that I should look for?

 

[MossRoad]

I have a nylon parts cleaner brush that I tried using at first, but it didn't accomplish anything. I went to the wire brush because that's what the HVAC guy suggested. I just dragged it along the direction of the fins and pulled out as much hair as it could, then cleaned it out and did it again. This took awhile, but I went from not being able to see through the fins, and then being able to see the coils clearly. They are dirty, and the fins are dirty, but air can flow through them now.

I tried a type of radiator cleaner stuff on my tractor that didn't seem to do anything, so I didn't try anything on my AC coils. Is there a brand that I should look for?

I've just used the spray cans from Lowes, Menard's, etc... at home. It seems from year to year the brands change. I don't have a favorite.

At my job, we use some commercial grade stuff that we have to mix in pump sprayers.
I happen to be sitting next to some of it right now...



The pink one we only use on outdoor condensers and it has to get rinsed off. The green one is self-rinsing and is safe for meat and poultry plants, so we're told to use that one on the indoor units.

 

[MossRoad]

Nothing seems to work good on the pet hair better than brushing it off the coils. Preventing it from getting there in the first place seems like the best alternative, although sometimes, that's pretty hard. We've always had cats, so we've always dealt with cat hair. When we had a dog, he didn't shed much, so it was still blamed on the cat! :laughing:

 

[MossRoad]

I think the last one's I got from Lowe's or Home Depot was in a green and yellow can. It worked really well on the greasy dust.

 

[Sigarms]

Thanks for this info. I went with MERV13 because of a chart that showed it catching more stuff then the lower numbers. I never thought about air flow. I'll try a MERV10 the next time I need filters, or do you think I should order then now?

I didn't understand if you think the ionizer works at reducing what is getting on my coils, or if the bigger filter will do the job instead? My thinking is to do a better job of cleaning the coil like you guys are suggesting, and seeing what the 2 inch filter does.

Honestly IMO, your HVAC guy should of done a static pressure check to begin with and let you know where you're at (this IMO should of been done when they changed the system out).

The reality is on the HVAC side, things are cheaper labor wise on retrofit and new install than adding a IAQ (AKA IAQ) or anything else onto your HVAC system. Not certain how long you had the dogs, but during changeout to the Amana system, IAQ should of been addressed with you on "future possibilities" on what can happen with your home and what you're looking at doing (generally the conversation can go nowhere on IAQ, and people want the least expensive option, but every once in a while, pets, allergies and other things do come up in the conversation where your HVAC guy can offer you options since he's already replacing the system).

The truth is, without knowing the actual static pressure with the old 1" (who knows what MERV rating) and going with the 2" MERV13 filter, no clue if you should try MERV10 or stick with the higher rated MERV13. Your ductwork may be able to handle the increase MERV rating or it may be too small. The only way is running a static pressure test (running piton tubes in the ductwork, a pretty good short video I found).

When it comes to IAQ, honestly, for a dummy like me, it gets confusing as far as what works and what doesn't (statistics from every manufacturer can vary, and the one thing I learned about stats is it all depends on your angle and what you're selling on how you use those stats). I know a lot of people who swear by ionizer air cleaners (Dust Free, REME HALO and iWaveR) which I could recommend and feel are the better brands out there because people who have those units installed have never complained and seem happy with how those units affected their home (without some kind of actual, testing it could just be a placebo effect, but as long as the buyer is happy, who cares?).

I do some selling from time to time, and when I do, I try to treat each homeonwer as if they were my own parents, and my parents were tight with their money! The reality is though I've never tried a IAQ ionizer one in my own home and did research on it and could speak from personal experience. What I do know is the IAQ market is sky high right now with the COVD19, and I had to wait 3 months for a whole home HEPA MERV16 whole home air filtration system that the homeowner wanted.

What I do know is no one I know of complained about spending money on a IAQ "ionizer".

 

[Sigarms]

I've just used the spray cans from Lowes, Menard's, etc... at home. It seems from year to year the brands change. I don't have a favorite.

At my job, we use some commercial grade stuff that we have to mix in pump sprayers.
I happen to be sitting next to some of it right now...

View attachment 676761

The pink one we only use on outdoor condensers and it has to get rinsed off. The green one is self-rinsing and is safe for meat and poultry plants, so we're told to use that one on the indoor units.

Triple D is what you seek young Padawan

Condenser coils made of copper oxidizes over time, discoloring the copper tubes. People take the "off color" of the copper (after the copper oxidizes) as being dirty. The problem with acidic type coil cleaners (notice your pink coil cleaner states "corrosive"?) is that the chemicals can "eat" at the copper, thus cleaning it to the end users eyes, because it can take the discolorization of the oxidide copper off. The issue is if you keep cleaning the coil annually with corrosive coil cleaner, you can cause your copper coil more harm than good.

 

[Snobdds]

I put air filters in my return air ducts to catch stuff before returning to the furnace to become positively charged again, basically it helps with static electricity generated by the friction of air movement in the ducts. Cheap and really works great.

 

[MossRoad]

I put air filters in my return air ducts to catch stuff before returning to the furnace to become positively charged again, basically it helps with static electricity generated by the friction of air movement in the ducts. Cheap and really works great.

Aren't most air filters in the return air duct just before the fan?

 

[Snobdds]

Aren't most air filters in the return air duct just before the fan?

They are.

I guess I am talking about the cold air return register.