5075E Hydraulic / transmission freeze and thaw. -linkage

[CobyRupert]

Today I started up Deere. 5075E tractor today. Let it warm for a few minutes. Drove it in 2nd gear, low range it’s (3x3, 9 speed) at just above idle for a hundred feet or so. Went to put it in reverse. It was like the gear wasn’t there and wouldn’t go in. Same with 1st gear. I had 2nd & 3rd gear (which are “above” neutral on the shift pattern) but not Reverse and 1st which are below.
At first I thought it was a linkage problem. Nope.

It’s been barely below freezing for a day or so, but I’ve never had this problem before, and I’ve never had problems at way lower temps.
I was stopped on a fairly steep hill and the tractor barely rolled back a few feet and stopped when in neutral. I turned on the PTO, and waited a few minutes, playing around with the clutch and shifter, range selector, etc...then something “freed”, the tractor started rolling backwards, and the shifter operated like normal, going into all gears easily for the rest of the day.

Water in hydraulic oil and transmission? Nothing shows on the dip stick. Something else? Tractor is always stored indoors, shift lever boots are ok.

Hydraulic oil only has 200 hours on it (to be change every 1200) and filter has 200 hours (to be changed every 250)....but 4 years.

I ordered a new filter, but thinking about draining off bottom gallon of hydraulic oil too.
What do you think caused this? What would you do?

 

[RickB]

Drain off some oil as per your plan. If it shows any water contamination, drain & fill. Absolutely change the filter regardless.

 

[LouNY]

The only problem with that is with the upcoming weather temperatures you will need to keep it in a heated shop/garage for 24 hours (preferably) for any water to separate out and drop down to the drain.

 

[CobyRupert]

Thanks for the tip Lou.
I know water is most dense at 34F (I think?), but I don’t know much about oil density, emulsification, etc... or how temps would effect separation.

Edit1: Google says (refinery related website) that increased heat lowers oil viscosity, so oil and water is more easily released from each other? So less viscous warm oil is better than more dense cold water for separation?

Think water was source of problem? I have no clue how it would of got in. Condensation over 4 years?

 

[k0ua]

Thanks for the tip Lou.
I know water is most dense at 34F (I think?), but I don’t know much about oil density, emulsification, etc... or how temps would effect separation.

Edit1: Google says (refinery related website) that increased heat lowers oil viscosity, so oil and water is more easily released from each other? So less viscous warm oil is better than more dense cold water for separation?

Think water was source of problem? I have no clue how it would of got in. Condensation over 4 years?

Well, as you operate hydraulics even if it is just the 3 point air is sucked into the transmission case/reservoir each time the hydraulics are raised, and if you have a loader, it can be hundreds of times a day. The air is blown back out the vent when they are lowered. So a living breathing animal. And if the system is run enough to become hot than not all that much water (air always has water vapor in it) will stay in the oil. But if only operated multiple times and those are short time periods, and the transmission/reservoir never really heats up good, then condensate can and will occur. And if you operate it like that enough over a long period of time, you might possibly have some water in the machine. The symptoms sure seem like a chunk of ice in there to me. It doesn't have to be rain water for water to get into the oil. Condensate in the oil is a natural, normal part of usage, and only by heating the oil up for a long period of time will the water vapor off and come out of the oil. But you can't suck oil out of the reservoir without replacing it with air, and when the implements are lowered it is going to have to push that air back out. So fresh air and water are always going to go into your reservoir.

 

[RickB]

The only problem with that is with the upcoming weather temperatures you will need to keep it in a heated shop/garage for 24 hours (preferably) for any water to separate out and drop down to the drain.

I'm not expecting all the water to precipitate out. I do expect contamination to show up more noticibly at the bottom of the housing than say, on the dipstick. My suggestion was to drain (completely) and fill if contamination was found at the drain point. If the oil looks good there, chances are the filter is restricted and should be changed.

Edit: I should have specified a complete oil change if contamination was observed.

 

[rScotty]

I'm not expecting all the water to precipitate out. I do expect contamination to show up more noticibly at the bottom of the housing than say, on the dipstick. My suggestion was to drain (completely) and fill if contamination was found at the drain point. If the oil looks good there, chances are the filter is restricted and should be changed.

Edit: I should have specified a complete oil change if contamination was observed.

Was the type of oil ever mentioned? I ask because our JD310SG is a similar vintage (2008) and it is a model that was set up by the factory to use JD motor oil as the preferred hydraulic fluid instead of Hygard trans/hydraulic oil.

One of the differences that bothered me when JD did that is that motor oil is designed to keep water in suspension just about forever. It may or may not separate out. For that matter, I see several posts on this thread talking about how water separates out from hydraulic fluid, but I've never seen that separation myself with any of our tractors. Like most of experienced tractor guys, I use a modern Hygard or similar high end trans/hydraulic fluid in spite of the price, knowing I'm basically paying top dollar for an additive package. Maybe some low dollar bulk brands with fewer additives will separate out - I wouldn't know.

But back to the water separation theory, has anyone seen that happen or tested it lately? I sure haven't and now am wondering about it.
rScotty

 

[RickB]

Was the type of oil ever mentioned? I ask because our JD310SG is a similar vintage (2008) and it is a model that was set up by the factory to use JD motor oil as the preferred hydraulic fluid instead of Hygard trans/hydraulic oil.

One of the differences that bothered me when JD did that is that motor oil is designed to keep water in suspension just about forever. It may or may not separate out. For that matter, I see several posts on this thread talking about how water separates out from hydraulic fluid, but I've never seen that separation myself with any of our tractors. Like most of experienced tractor guys, I use a modern Hygard or similar high end trans/hydraulic fluid in spite of the price, knowing I'm basically paying top dollar for an additive package. Maybe some low dollar bulk brands with fewer additives will separate out - I wouldn't know.

But back to the water separation theory, has anyone seen that happen or tested it lately? I sure haven't and now am wondering about it.
rScotty

That would be a question for the OP.
My comments are not dependent on whether or not water precipitates out of the oil.

 

[CobyRupert]

Good point K0ua about the hydraulic system sucking air/moisture.
My usage also tends to be logging activities which is very intermediate usage, and a lot of stop and go, idling. I try to keep it fast rev’d, but hydraulic/trans oil problem doesn’t get very warm.
The warmest that oil gets is probably from a few hours of rotary mowing in the summer. Did less of that this summer.
I believe the oil is Deere Hy-Gard, I’ll have to find the pail, but I got the oil the dealer recommended when I changed it.
I’m going to change the filter and let a gallon or two of the oil at the bottom of the sump run out the drain plug. Can’t hurt right?
I was worried that some thing else beside condensate freezing would give me these symptoms.

 

[jonsstihl]

well it could always be a chunk of gear but it does sound like the forum is on the right track.