Architect for home renovation/additions

[tlj87]

We live in a 1 1/2 story "cabin" on a block foundation built circa 1974, designed originally as a weekend home/bunkhouse.
After owning the property for about 12 years and living here for a little more than 6, we're now ready to renovate the interior and add on as necessary to achieve our goal of adding a master bedroom and bath (first addition) and a kitchen and pantry (second addition). Remodeling/re configuring of the interior would be done as necessary to provide for two bedrooms, one for each daughter, bathroom, dining area, family room and mudroom.

Late last fall, we hired a well-recommended architect in our area (there are not many in our area). Our thought was to have an architect develop a design based on our needs/wants, within our established budget, that we would then take to several contractors on which they'd provide bids. This would ensure that each contractor was bidding on the same thing, vs. each of them coming up with their own variation of the design. We also felt that having these plans would help keep the project on budget and limit questions as the project progressed.

Right now, we're getting the preliminary estimates back based on the schematic design provided by the architect. We are not at the final design stage yet. I've contacted about eight contractors. Several did not call back. Two declined to bid. Two have provided estimates. We're waiting on one estimate from a contractor that I'm not too enthusiastic about.

Of the two estimates received to date, the first is about $190,000 over our budget. The second is about $85,000 over our budget. The second contractor is our top pick, based on our comfort with him, reputation and apparent interest in the project (not necessarily because his price is lower). This individual also has worked with our architect previously. The first contractor that provided a bid I know would also do a fine job, they're one of the larger firms in the area, the type with their own estimators, showroom, designers, etc., but we just didn't form the same connection with them. These estimates are with my wife and I doing all interior demolition (to the studs), doing all interior and exterior painting ourselves, and final grading, seeding, landscaping outside.

It is difficult without the third estimate at this point to make any final, sweeping assessments, but my primary frustration at this point lies with the architect. We were very clear with what our wants/needs were and our budget (approx. $165,000 excluding architect/appliances/furniture). Our thought was that the architect would/should have is finger on the pulse of the construction industry and that he would generate a design that would be something that would we could afford. As the first part of the contract, the architect came out and took all the existing measurements of the building and generated six different floor plan options. The elevations and final floor plans are part of the second part of the contract which we are just beginning now. Along the way, I questioned several choices in the floor plans based on my suspicion that the cost would be high, but he pushed and often said "think blue skies" and that what was being proposed was not unreasonable for our budget.

The architect has been "surprised" at how high the estimates have been so far, and is talking to the second contractor (with whom he's previously worked) to get a handle on his estimate.

Are our expectations off? I understand the volatility in that construction materials market now, but I don't think the gap between our target budget number and the estimates is all to cover volatility. Based on where we are in the design process and contractors existing schedules, this project likely wouldn't start until spring 2022.

Thanks for any thoughts on this.

 

[fried1765]

We live in a 1 1/2 story "cabin" on a block foundation built circa 1974, designed originally as a weekend home/bunkhouse.
After owning the property for about 12 years and living here for a little more than 6, we're now ready to renovate the interior and add on as necessary to achieve our goal of adding a master bedroom and bath (first addition) and a kitchen and pantry (second addition). Remodeling/re configuring of the interior would be done as necessary to provide for two bedrooms, one for each daughter, bathroom, dining area, family room and mudroom.

Late last fall, we hired a well-recommended architect in our area (there are not many in our area). Our thought was to have an architect develop a design based on our needs/wants, within our established budget, that we would then take to several contractors on which they'd provide bids. This would ensure that each contractor was bidding on the same thing, vs. each of them coming up with their own variation of the design. We also felt that having these plans would help keep the project on budget and limit questions as the project progressed.

Right now, we're getting the preliminary estimates back based on the schematic design provided by the architect. We are not at the final design stage yet. I've contacted about eight contractors. Several did not call back. Two declined to bid. Two have provided estimates. We're waiting on one estimate from a contractor that I'm not too enthusiastic about.

Of the two estimates received to date, the first is about $190,000 over our budget. The second is about $85,000 over our budget. The second contractor is our top pick, based on our comfort with him, reputation and apparent interest in the project (not necessarily because his price is lower). This individual also has worked with our architect previously. The first contractor that provided a bid I know would also do a fine job, they're one of the larger firms in the area, the type with their own estimators, showroom, designers, etc., but we just didn't form the same connection with them. These estimates are with my wife and I doing all interior demolition (to the studs), doing all interior and exterior painting ourselves, and final grading, seeding, landscaping outside.

It is difficult without the third estimate at this point to make any final, sweeping assessments, but my primary frustration at this point lies with the architect. We were very clear with what our wants/needs were and our budget (approx. $165,000 excluding architect/appliances/furniture). Our thought was that the architect would/should have is finger on the pulse of the construction industry and that he would generate a design that would be something that would we could afford. As the first part of the contract, the architect came out and took all the existing measurements of the building and generated six different floor plan options. The elevations and final floor plans are part of the second part of the contract which we are just beginning now. Along the way, I questioned several choices in the floor plans based on my suspicion that the cost would be high, but he pushed and often said "think blue skies" and that what was being proposed was not unreasonable for our budget.

The architect has been "surprised" at how high the estimates have been so far, and is talking to the second contractor (with whom he's previously worked) to get a handle on his estimate.

Are our expectations off? I understand the volatility in that construction materials market now, but I don't think the gap between our target budget number and the estimates is all to cover volatility. Based on where we are in the design process and contractors existing schedules, this project likely wouldn't start until spring 2022.

Thanks for any thoughts on this.

Due to the WIDE disparity in your two estimates, you should certainly try to get two additional estimates.
Something does not quite pass the smell test with your two current estimates!

 

[dougtrr2]

I wouldn't worry about the estimate from the third contractor. Regardless of his price, you already have a bias against him. If you choose him you will never be comfortable with the project.

It is hard to tell whether the architect is out of touch, or you had unrealistic expectations. What would your response have been if the architect had just said "Sorry, no way we can fit your requirements into the budget, come back with lower expectations or a larger budget". In my opinion there are too many projects done where the final result is the only goal, and the money side is only considered later. I think you are approaching it the right way with a dollar figure in mind.

I think I would have a hard conversation with the contractors and architect to do a detailed analysis of the difference in the bids. As the pointed questions of why is your bid so much higher/lower than the other. The quality of materials may be a big difference.

Finding a contractor you trust is your best bet. If you have a crook for a contractor you can't write a contract detailed enough to keep from getting taken.

Doug in SW IA

 

[old and tired]

You can't even get a contractor around here... We did a remodel and it wasn't cheap. Most people around us will demo a $400k; 1,800 sq.ft. house (demo was $3K) and build new. It seems to me that you are re-working a majority of the house...

I would look into keeping the old house as is and build a new house, then use old house as a guest house. We lived in the house that went from 1100 ft2 to 1750 with remodeling an additional 500 inside the house. I don't ever want to do that again...

I know so many architects, including my dad, our plans were well over an extra $100k (double the price) so you have to reel in the architect's ideas a wee bit.

We did a modular home in the mountains, I did the layout and the modular company built it to those specs. Had a local contractor finish it off. Was quicker and it was nice to be able to lock the doors once it was dropped off!

 

[plowhog]

Our thought was that the architect would/should have is finger on the pulse of the construction industry

I think you are expecting too much from your architect. In our area, lumber prices doubled year over year. Architects are not directly involved in that, and information they get is often ancedotal and lagging the actual market. Also, look at the wide variance in price from two builders for the exact same job. Is one of those numbers "correct" and the other "wrong?" No.

Turn it around, and ask if you should have brought a builder into the conversation, with the architect, as the plan was being developed. So you had *both* builder input and architect input to formulate.

My wife and I recently completed a very large hybrid of new construction and remodel. Took an existing house and scraped it entirely down to the subfloor and built a brand new residence from there up. What I learned is the architect, reasonably, only takes it so far. Their focus is more on design and cost is secondary. It is their primary job to meet your desires for living space by developing a safe, legal, and efficient plan. Not as much to ensure you can get construction bids at the price you want. If the architect provided quality plans for living space you like, they have met most of their responsibility.

btw, I would budget 10%-15% more than what is bid by your contractor, no matter how tight the bid seems when you receive it. If your project is like ours, you will "find" new things along the way that would be nicer here, or an improvement there. And that adds to the cost.

Good luck with your project.

 

[tlj87]

It is hard to tell whether the architect is out of touch, or you had unrealistic expectations. What would your response have been if the architect had just said "Sorry, no way we can fit your requirements into the budget, come back with lower expectations or a larger budget". In my opinion there are too many projects done where the final result is the only goal, and the money side is only considered later. I think you are approaching it the right way with a dollar figure in mind.

This is a good question/statement. My day job is managing natural areas and leased farmland for a conservation organization, thus, I have a bit of experience working with contractors on maintaining the many homes, barns, etc. on our farm properties and other parking/trail/habitat work on our nature preserves. With that general knowledge, I was able to put together what I felt was a realistic plan and list of our needs for our home with which we shared with the architect at our first consultation. So, I think there was some project creep with the architect's ideas inserted, but, again, he tried to reassure that what he was proposing was not out of line. I fear that now, we might be going back to what I had originally pictured/designed, thus us possibly having wasted $8000 on an archtiects' work that we might not ultimately be able to use.

I would look into keeping the old house as is and build a new house, then use old house as a guest house.

Our property is 100 acres currently with 17 structures on it. It was developed as a private camp that the previous/original owner allowed youth organizations to use. We continue that, allowing youth orgs (scouts, church groups, etc.) use the property for free on weekends in the spring/summer/fall. There are many reasons we don't charge for use, including wanting to encourage outdoor recreation, regulations, liability, etc. To build a whole new house, well, septic, etc. would well exceed our budget and leave us with a pretty big building that would get used by the groups, but would be an additional burden on us to maintain, insure, pay taxes on, etc. Further complicating that idea is the fact that the driveway uses a low water crossing, which per our state regulation, can be used only for non-commercial purposes meaning (and I have clarified this with our permitting agency) that if we charge money for use of the property, then the use of the crossing is no longer legal. So, no, we couldn't charge to use our existing house as a rented cabin, air bnb, etc. without spending a huge amount of money for a very big bridge project.

 

[tlj87]

I think you are expecting too much from your architect. In our area, lumber prices doubled year over year. Architects are not directly involved in that, and information they get is often ancedotal and lagging the actual market. Also, look at the wide variance in price from two builders for the exact same job. Is one of those numbers "correct" and the other "wrong?" No.

Turn it around, and ask if you should have brought a builder into the conversation, with the architect, as the plan was being developed. So you had *both* builder input and architect input to formulate.

In a way, we are including a builder in the conversation before the architects job is done, as the exterior elevations are not complete nor are the interior floor plans finalized with all the details. It did not occur to me to have the builder sit down at the table through the whole process. I guess my impression was that by providing a budget to the architect, that we might get variations from contractors in the $10-$50,000 range, not ~$100,000, with both being way above the known budget. Live and learn!

 

[jmc]

Some of the (small time) remodelers I knew used to say that when things are really busy, bid the jobs like you don't want them.

 

[plowhog]

It did not occur to me to have the builder sit down at the table through the whole process.

Our architect made us aware that was an option, but like you, we did not bring a builder into the process until the plans were nearly complete. But we did make adjustments after getting bids back, and along the way during construction.

Our residence has 36 dimmer switches. Seems like a lot but its true. The architect drew them on the plans, but no model or brand were specified. When we asked for electrical bids, the electrician told us the price of dimmer switches varies from $15/ea to $75/ea. Incandescent or LED? Wifi control? And it goes on ....

The architect drew plans calling for granite counters. And for exterior light fixtures. Our builder set "allowances" for things like this. We got a steal on 4 high quality matching granite slabs for $4,000. In the same showroom were exotic slabs for $7000 each. The architect never knew what we chose.

The architect drew plans calling for about a dozen exterior light fixtures. "Coach lights." My wife shopped and found the price range was from about $50/ea (cheap) to $1,500/ea (yikes.) We chose ones that cost $350/ea. The architect wasn't part of that.

As I said, the architect only takes it so far. In our experience, electrical is the most common area where the budget can be exceeded.

I hope you have fun with, and enjoy, your project. It's a stressful thing to go through, but doing custom construction can also be very satisfying.

 

[tlj87]

Some of the (small time) remodelers I knew used to say that when things are really busy, bid the jobs like you don't want them.

Oh yes, I have experienced this before!

 

[Frankenkubota]

Some of the (small time) remodelers I knew used to say that when things are really busy, bid the jobs like you don't want them.

my older brother did kinda high end remodeling for rich folks. he did quite well, lives on a big lake outside of Milwaukee.

that was his philosophy, bid it so high that if you do get it, you have to take it.

I'm building right now and a couple times i've asked subs for numbers......in a few cases the bid was double what i already had.

Everyone here is so busy it's a sellers market for sure.

1 example....my septic was quoted at $7300.00 for a 2 tank pump system from the local guy, goodguy! He was so far behind from the rain he couldn't get to me so i went to another guy.....$13,500.00 and get in line.

Not quite double.

I waited and thank goodness, we had about 8 days without rain and the first guy ........ got er done!

Things have changed since last time i did this.

I'm thinking, 2 tanks, lots of extra drain pipe cause 4 bedroom permit and the land barely perked, 200 ft of 2 inch pump line and all the the house plumbing.......

I bet , in my life, I can never fill it. That's my new goal, fill the septic tanks!

 

[dodge man]

Not insulting architects, but I’ve never known them to design something on the cheap. It’s been a few years ago but I put a price for construction staking for a performing arts center at the local college. The staking was a small part of the project but somehow I became so fascinated with the specs and plans I got sucked in and read quite a bit. I only vaguely knew what I was reading but I knew enough to know this project was going to come in to high and not get built. The finishes, sound system, HVAC, electrical system were all high end. It didn’t get built. Every music professor, dance teacher, theatre professor got to input what they wanted. It killed the project.

So did your budget match what you wanted? Did the architect just go overboard? Why did you feel you needed an architect? What you get with an architect is maybe making a mistake. They also have some structural engineering skills. Having something built that you think is good but isn’t functional Is what they can save you from. For a house remodel a good contractor can maybe give you what you want.

 

[old and tired]

Our builder fired our architect And we were fine with that. We were friends with both of them... architect wanted trusses and the builder wanted a main 4"x16"x 23' beam down the middle. Except the load bearing floors were already done and not at the end where the beam was Only costed us another grand to fix it.

THAT paid for itself because a week before we moved in; Hurricane Fran dropped a 120' (29" DBH) Popular tree and snapped the beam right in half. If we had the trusses, it would have sheared off both additions of 750 sqft.

That was a rude awakening!!! Went from to in my pants...

 

[dstig1]

This is a common problem with architects. Often discussed in building and architectural forums. I used Chief Architect software to design my house and was on the forum for several years to learn, and ask questions when I needed to. The forum was heavy with architects and home designers plus some DIY types like me. It was a topic that came up frequently. There are many architects (mind you: many - not all) that just have no clue about building and will end up making plans that cannot be built or are too expensive. The problem was described once as "you wouldn't believe the number of architect's plans that are beautiful and sit in a drawer, never to be built, due to the cost and/or complexity to do so." The ones that do better often have a construction background and have "swung a hammer" earlier in life. Many architects are artists that make their art in buildings and are often not very practical. When You find one that gets it, stick with them. I would almost ask any prospect right off the bat "Have you ever built anything yourself? Describe." If they haven't it is a huge strike against them to me. You can find exceptions, but having that practical grounding in actual building is a big deal, IMO.

Plus as others noted, building materials have skyrocketed in the past year, so that sure doesn't help. And many contractors are alos very busy - causing prices to rise.

 

[old and tired]

...Many architects are artists that make their art in buildings and are often not very practical....

That's a great statement. Neighbors are looking for a bigger house, finally decided to build another addition and is going through the process right now. I do not envy them one bit.

Before the architect, I think the owner needs to sketch out on paper what they would like then think about about it for a while and re-draw it (several times). Don't let the architect drive unless you have no clue what you want (and if that's the case... you need to step back and ponder it for a while... after all, you'll have to live there!) IMO

 

[dmccarty]

Design is an iterative process. Design to a price point is even more iterative.

I designed our house. I took three years of drafting in high school, and from what I can tell, it is not taught any more, which is a shame since I use the skills from those classes all of the time.

The first design phase was on graph paper, each square is 2 or 4 feet, and started drawing, changing things and throwing away ideas. Before we got to doing more detailed plans I had a stack of graph paper almost an inch thick.

We found our builder by visiting a house under construction. The house was a supposedly energy efficient home. Very unique. A kit home but not like one would think. We had decided that we were NOT going to go with this house for various reasons but we decided to go see it anyway. That is where we met our builder. We talked with the guy who supplied the kit for maybe 30 minutes, then spent hours with the builder. As we drove away from the house, the wife and I looked at each other and said, "We found the builder." We went to see him the following week for more talks.

The builder and I would go through our latest graph paper sketches, he would provide a guestimate and I would change things. It took quite a bit of time to get to a point where I started to do blue prints. I actually pulled out my old drafting equipment and was doing the design on paper for awhile before I found the latest and greatest version of the CAD program I had used years before.

We had some design cycles around my "blue prints" but not many changes.

Decades before the above happened, I found a guy in a design business who would draw up the prints. I think he priced by the foot or some such. He was not an architect but drawing houses is really not that hard. There are details one needs to know but it is not rocket science.

Right now, with the tight labor market, high demand for housing and amazing prices for lumber, I would expect building a house to be expensive. Now may not be the time to build. It might be better to hold off.

Having said that, when we built out house, concrete was in short supply because China was buying up all of the worlds cement. We had to wait to get an allotment of cement and we were limited to how much we could get. Thankfully, it was enough and the time delay was not too bad.

Later,
Dan

 

[dodge man]

I also had drafting in high school and a little in college. I also have access to Autocad. I drew up our house floor plan before we remodeled. I even drew up little pieces of furniture and cut them out so you could move them around on paper. That all helps a lot. We have an Island in our kitchen and my wife wanted a bigger one. We went to a kitchen store and they had a similar sized island and when you saw it in person you realized the size. It’s very hard for people to visualize things on paper. An architect is suppose to do that for you so you don’t screw up.

 

[East30]

I've been working for a year planning the new retirement home. Sticker shock was definitely there for me as well a year ago January. The designer, we didn't use an architect, knew what we wanted to spend. But, I could tell his main focus was designing the home we asked for.

After his first round, we increased garage size and main living area, a bit. The quote was much higher from our first builder than I expected. We did learn that all the quotes were for pretty high-end stuff in the home. Which I'm glad, we are slowly knocking a few of those costs down. Plus original quote, to build is just over one year, which means...

Rebid. The cost of wood and goods jumped us another $20k in 12 months. Signed the contract yesterday and moving forward.

We did get one other bid last year, which was less. When I asked why, mostly it was in lumber. instead of using what I'll call true lumber yard, He would purchase and use 11% discounts from Menards and apply to next purchases. All fixtures from Menards, same thing using 11% discounts as much as possible, other peoples discounts as I wasn't sure how that would all time out. He built very nice homes, but seemed weird to me. Most things were all bid at lower cost, with in my opinion only upwards to go as we selected options in more detail.

I'm not sure in the long run how much savings there would actually be. I've already found the suppliers the contractor went to are much better in helping us through the process, versus shopping Menards or the Internet for stuff, which also takes time. There is a cost to better suppliers. Most of what we've done so far in the higher bid is drop some of the costs with fixtures, flooring, stone, and tile, but we have a long way to go.

 

[dstig1]

I really wasn't trying to just dump on Architects. There are very good ones out there, but you can run into the more artsy types that end up desinging things that are impractical, unbuildable or just too costly. When I designed our house I had help from an Archie. As I mentioned I was on the Chief Architect Forum a lot back then. I managed to connect with an Archie that went to my college, and right about the same time i was there but we didn't know each other then. The Archies were kind of their own separate world in that school. But it was enough of a connection where he ended up doing some work for me helping me refine the design and it was great.

In a matter of a few days of back and forth, he was able to really clean up the look of the exterior - mainly by designing a window pattern that looked good and proportional while still doing what you needed inside the house. He also cleaned up the master suite layout in one shot and improved it a lot. I still made changes from there, but he set me up with a really good base with those 2 items - window layout and master suite. It was a combination of talent and experience. He knew what he was doing and was good at it. He also laid out some ideas that were highly impractical like the use of a Nanawall bank of folding door/windows. They are really neat but would be a disaster in this climate. But I knew enough to say no to those things and yes to the good stuff and we got to a very nice finished design that way. The design is mine, overall, but he really helped improve it for only a couple $k in costs. Well worth it.

 

[MossRoad]

My father was an architect. A very good one. He was also a certified construction specification writer. One of only a few in the entire state at the time. So not only could he do the design plans, he could specify the different materials to be used, how the contractor had to use the materials, and the costs of the materials. Everything from the foundation concrete to the paint on the walls. All of it.

I think you might be hard-pressed to find a residential architect with that kind of knowledge. They have to work with others to develop materials lists and prices, engineering, and so on.

Most people wanting to build a home would be better served to pour through existing house plan books and find something very close to what they want. Then talk to builders about modifying those plans, and skip the architect all together. Pretty much all of the floor plans have already been thought of. Unless you're looking for something completely unique (and are willing to pay through the nose), there's probably a plan out there already that will suite you well.

Remodels and additions are a bit different, however, if you keep the exterior of the addition similar to the existing structure, the builder won't have too much trouble matching it. Interior details are where an architect could be helpful on a remodel/addition, but so could a designer and a builder.

Just remember that in many places, you might need "stamped" documents from an architect or engineer.