Architect for home renovation/additions

[tlj87]

We live in a 1 1/2 story "cabin" on a block foundation built circa 1974, designed originally as a weekend home/bunkhouse.
After owning the property for about 12 years and living here for a little more than 6, we're now ready to renovate the interior and add on as necessary to achieve our goal of adding a master bedroom and bath (first addition) and a kitchen and pantry (second addition). Remodeling/re configuring of the interior would be done as necessary to provide for two bedrooms, one for each daughter, bathroom, dining area, family room and mudroom.

Late last fall, we hired a well-recommended architect in our area (there are not many in our area). Our thought was to have an architect develop a design based on our needs/wants, within our established budget, that we would then take to several contractors on which they'd provide bids. This would ensure that each contractor was bidding on the same thing, vs. each of them coming up with their own variation of the design. We also felt that having these plans would help keep the project on budget and limit questions as the project progressed.

Right now, we're getting the preliminary estimates back based on the schematic design provided by the architect. We are not at the final design stage yet. I've contacted about eight contractors. Several did not call back. Two declined to bid. Two have provided estimates. We're waiting on one estimate from a contractor that I'm not too enthusiastic about.

Of the two estimates received to date, the first is about $190,000 over our budget. The second is about $85,000 over our budget. The second contractor is our top pick, based on our comfort with him, reputation and apparent interest in the project (not necessarily because his price is lower). This individual also has worked with our architect previously. The first contractor that provided a bid I know would also do a fine job, they're one of the larger firms in the area, the type with their own estimators, showroom, designers, etc., but we just didn't form the same connection with them. These estimates are with my wife and I doing all interior demolition (to the studs), doing all interior and exterior painting ourselves, and final grading, seeding, landscaping outside.

It is difficult without the third estimate at this point to make any final, sweeping assessments, but my primary frustration at this point lies with the architect. We were very clear with what our wants/needs were and our budget (approx. $165,000 excluding architect/appliances/furniture). Our thought was that the architect would/should have is finger on the pulse of the construction industry and that he would generate a design that would be something that would we could afford. As the first part of the contract, the architect came out and took all the existing measurements of the building and generated six different floor plan options. The elevations and final floor plans are part of the second part of the contract which we are just beginning now. Along the way, I questioned several choices in the floor plans based on my suspicion that the cost would be high, but he pushed and often said "think blue skies" and that what was being proposed was not unreasonable for our budget.

The architect has been "surprised" at how high the estimates have been so far, and is talking to the second contractor (with whom he's previously worked) to get a handle on his estimate.

Are our expectations off? I understand the volatility in that construction materials market now, but I don't think the gap between our target budget number and the estimates is all to cover volatility. Based on where we are in the design process and contractors existing schedules, this project likely wouldn't start until spring 2022.

Thanks for any thoughts on this.

 

[fried1765]

We live in a 1 1/2 story "cabin" on a block foundation built circa 1974, designed originally as a weekend home/bunkhouse.
After owning the property for about 12 years and living here for a little more than 6, we're now ready to renovate the interior and add on as necessary to achieve our goal of adding a master bedroom and bath (first addition) and a kitchen and pantry (second addition). Remodeling/re configuring of the interior would be done as necessary to provide for two bedrooms, one for each daughter, bathroom, dining area, family room and mudroom.

Late last fall, we hired a well-recommended architect in our area (there are not many in our area). Our thought was to have an architect develop a design based on our needs/wants, within our established budget, that we would then take to several contractors on which they'd provide bids. This would ensure that each contractor was bidding on the same thing, vs. each of them coming up with their own variation of the design. We also felt that having these plans would help keep the project on budget and limit questions as the project progressed.

Right now, we're getting the preliminary estimates back based on the schematic design provided by the architect. We are not at the final design stage yet. I've contacted about eight contractors. Several did not call back. Two declined to bid. Two have provided estimates. We're waiting on one estimate from a contractor that I'm not too enthusiastic about.

Of the two estimates received to date, the first is about $190,000 over our budget. The second is about $85,000 over our budget. The second contractor is our top pick, based on our comfort with him, reputation and apparent interest in the project (not necessarily because his price is lower). This individual also has worked with our architect previously. The first contractor that provided a bid I know would also do a fine job, they're one of the larger firms in the area, the type with their own estimators, showroom, designers, etc., but we just didn't form the same connection with them. These estimates are with my wife and I doing all interior demolition (to the studs), doing all interior and exterior painting ourselves, and final grading, seeding, landscaping outside.

It is difficult without the third estimate at this point to make any final, sweeping assessments, but my primary frustration at this point lies with the architect. We were very clear with what our wants/needs were and our budget (approx. $165,000 excluding architect/appliances/furniture). Our thought was that the architect would/should have is finger on the pulse of the construction industry and that he would generate a design that would be something that would we could afford. As the first part of the contract, the architect came out and took all the existing measurements of the building and generated six different floor plan options. The elevations and final floor plans are part of the second part of the contract which we are just beginning now. Along the way, I questioned several choices in the floor plans based on my suspicion that the cost would be high, but he pushed and often said "think blue skies" and that what was being proposed was not unreasonable for our budget.

The architect has been "surprised" at how high the estimates have been so far, and is talking to the second contractor (with whom he's previously worked) to get a handle on his estimate.

Are our expectations off? I understand the volatility in that construction materials market now, but I don't think the gap between our target budget number and the estimates is all to cover volatility. Based on where we are in the design process and contractors existing schedules, this project likely wouldn't start until spring 2022.

Thanks for any thoughts on this.

Due to the WIDE disparity in your two estimates, you should certainly try to get two additional estimates.
Something does not quite pass the smell test with your two current estimates!

 

[dougtrr2]

I wouldn't worry about the estimate from the third contractor. Regardless of his price, you already have a bias against him. If you choose him you will never be comfortable with the project.

It is hard to tell whether the architect is out of touch, or you had unrealistic expectations. What would your response have been if the architect had just said "Sorry, no way we can fit your requirements into the budget, come back with lower expectations or a larger budget". In my opinion there are too many projects done where the final result is the only goal, and the money side is only considered later. I think you are approaching it the right way with a dollar figure in mind.

I think I would have a hard conversation with the contractors and architect to do a detailed analysis of the difference in the bids. As the pointed questions of why is your bid so much higher/lower than the other. The quality of materials may be a big difference.

Finding a contractor you trust is your best bet. If you have a crook for a contractor you can't write a contract detailed enough to keep from getting taken.

Doug in SW IA

 

[old and tired]

You can't even get a contractor around here... We did a remodel and it wasn't cheap. Most people around us will demo a $400k; 1,800 sq.ft. house (demo was $3K) and build new. It seems to me that you are re-working a majority of the house...

I would look into keeping the old house as is and build a new house, then use old house as a guest house. We lived in the house that went from 1100 ft2 to 1750 with remodeling an additional 500 inside the house. I don't ever want to do that again...

I know so many architects, including my dad, our plans were well over an extra $100k (double the price) so you have to reel in the architect's ideas a wee bit.

We did a modular home in the mountains, I did the layout and the modular company built it to those specs. Had a local contractor finish it off. Was quicker and it was nice to be able to lock the doors once it was dropped off!

 

[plowhog]

Our thought was that the architect would/should have is finger on the pulse of the construction industry

I think you are expecting too much from your architect. In our area, lumber prices doubled year over year. Architects are not directly involved in that, and information they get is often ancedotal and lagging the actual market. Also, look at the wide variance in price from two builders for the exact same job. Is one of those numbers "correct" and the other "wrong?" No.

Turn it around, and ask if you should have brought a builder into the conversation, with the architect, as the plan was being developed. So you had *both* builder input and architect input to formulate.

My wife and I recently completed a very large hybrid of new construction and remodel. Took an existing house and scraped it entirely down to the subfloor and built a brand new residence from there up. What I learned is the architect, reasonably, only takes it so far. Their focus is more on design and cost is secondary. It is their primary job to meet your desires for living space by developing a safe, legal, and efficient plan. Not as much to ensure you can get construction bids at the price you want. If the architect provided quality plans for living space you like, they have met most of their responsibility.

btw, I would budget 10%-15% more than what is bid by your contractor, no matter how tight the bid seems when you receive it. If your project is like ours, you will "find" new things along the way that would be nicer here, or an improvement there. And that adds to the cost.

Good luck with your project.

 

[tlj87]

It is hard to tell whether the architect is out of touch, or you had unrealistic expectations. What would your response have been if the architect had just said "Sorry, no way we can fit your requirements into the budget, come back with lower expectations or a larger budget". In my opinion there are too many projects done where the final result is the only goal, and the money side is only considered later. I think you are approaching it the right way with a dollar figure in mind.

This is a good question/statement. My day job is managing natural areas and leased farmland for a conservation organization, thus, I have a bit of experience working with contractors on maintaining the many homes, barns, etc. on our farm properties and other parking/trail/habitat work on our nature preserves. With that general knowledge, I was able to put together what I felt was a realistic plan and list of our needs for our home with which we shared with the architect at our first consultation. So, I think there was some project creep with the architect's ideas inserted, but, again, he tried to reassure that what he was proposing was not out of line. I fear that now, we might be going back to what I had originally pictured/designed, thus us possibly having wasted $8000 on an archtiects' work that we might not ultimately be able to use.

I would look into keeping the old house as is and build a new house, then use old house as a guest house.

Our property is 100 acres currently with 17 structures on it. It was developed as a private camp that the previous/original owner allowed youth organizations to use. We continue that, allowing youth orgs (scouts, church groups, etc.) use the property for free on weekends in the spring/summer/fall. There are many reasons we don't charge for use, including wanting to encourage outdoor recreation, regulations, liability, etc. To build a whole new house, well, septic, etc. would well exceed our budget and leave us with a pretty big building that would get used by the groups, but would be an additional burden on us to maintain, insure, pay taxes on, etc. Further complicating that idea is the fact that the driveway uses a low water crossing, which per our state regulation, can be used only for non-commercial purposes meaning (and I have clarified this with our permitting agency) that if we charge money for use of the property, then the use of the crossing is no longer legal. So, no, we couldn't charge to use our existing house as a rented cabin, air bnb, etc. without spending a huge amount of money for a very big bridge project.

 

[tlj87]

I think you are expecting too much from your architect. In our area, lumber prices doubled year over year. Architects are not directly involved in that, and information they get is often ancedotal and lagging the actual market. Also, look at the wide variance in price from two builders for the exact same job. Is one of those numbers "correct" and the other "wrong?" No.

Turn it around, and ask if you should have brought a builder into the conversation, with the architect, as the plan was being developed. So you had *both* builder input and architect input to formulate.

In a way, we are including a builder in the conversation before the architects job is done, as the exterior elevations are not complete nor are the interior floor plans finalized with all the details. It did not occur to me to have the builder sit down at the table through the whole process. I guess my impression was that by providing a budget to the architect, that we might get variations from contractors in the $10-$50,000 range, not ~$100,000, with both being way above the known budget. Live and learn!

 

[jmc]

Some of the (small time) remodelers I knew used to say that when things are really busy, bid the jobs like you don't want them.

 

[plowhog]

It did not occur to me to have the builder sit down at the table through the whole process.

Our architect made us aware that was an option, but like you, we did not bring a builder into the process until the plans were nearly complete. But we did make adjustments after getting bids back, and along the way during construction.

Our residence has 36 dimmer switches. Seems like a lot but its true. The architect drew them on the plans, but no model or brand were specified. When we asked for electrical bids, the electrician told us the price of dimmer switches varies from $15/ea to $75/ea. Incandescent or LED? Wifi control? And it goes on ....

The architect drew plans calling for granite counters. And for exterior light fixtures. Our builder set "allowances" for things like this. We got a steal on 4 high quality matching granite slabs for $4,000. In the same showroom were exotic slabs for $7000 each. The architect never knew what we chose.

The architect drew plans calling for about a dozen exterior light fixtures. "Coach lights." My wife shopped and found the price range was from about $50/ea (cheap) to $1,500/ea (yikes.) We chose ones that cost $350/ea. The architect wasn't part of that.

As I said, the architect only takes it so far. In our experience, electrical is the most common area where the budget can be exceeded.

I hope you have fun with, and enjoy, your project. It's a stressful thing to go through, but doing custom construction can also be very satisfying.

 

[tlj87]

Some of the (small time) remodelers I knew used to say that when things are really busy, bid the jobs like you don't want them.

Oh yes, I have experienced this before!